Scope of External & Internal Audits

G

gavinfb

#1
Hello,
Is it correct that audits are done only on procedures and the rest (policies & work instructions) are "nice to do" that help support the audit process?

thank you

Gav
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Scope of External & Internal audit

Hello,
Is it correct that audits are done only on procedures and the rest (policies & work instructions) are "nice to do" that help support the audit process?

thank you

Gav
Welcome to the Cove. :bigwave:

Processes should be audited, and one process may include more than one type of documented requirements. The idea of the audit should be to confirm that a process is operating in accordance with requirements.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Re: Scope of External & Internal audit

Hello,
Is it correct that audits are done only on procedures and the rest (policies & work instructions) are "nice to do" that help support the audit process?

thank you

Gav
Gav,

When you audit the effectiveness of a process and its procedure you include the policy and relevant objectives and instructions as your audit criteria.

Indeed, the instruction is part of the procedure and you'd expect to see evidence of awareness of the objectives and understanding of the policy.

I'm not sure why you would think some of the requirements were optional.

John
 
G

gavinfb

#4
Re: Scope of External & Internal audit

Thank you Jim & John for the response.

I understand that policies, objectives & instructions can be looked at during an audit but can an auditor give a non-conformity if for e.g. the procedure is up to date but the policies/objectives/instructions linked to that procedure is not up-to-date on the day of the audit?
 
#5
Re: Scope of External & Internal audit

Thank you Jim & John for the response.

I understand that policies, objectives & instructions can be looked at during an audit but can an auditor give a non-conformity if for e.g. the procedure is up to date but the policies/objectives/instructions linked to that procedure is not up-to-date on the day of the audit?
They certainly could, but what you have described is lacking detail. Dates - being "up to date" is somewhat arbitrary, since if the CONTENT is still valid, then what's the real issue? It's often the case that auditors report symptoms - such as out of date documentation, when in fact, it masks the real issue.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Re: Scope of External & Internal audit

Thank you Jim & John for the response.

I understand that policies, objectives & instructions can be looked at during an audit but can an auditor give a non-conformity if for e.g. the procedure is up to date but the policies/objectives/instructions linked to that procedure is not up-to-date on the day of the audit?
Is there a particular audit that led to this question? More details would be good. In general, any documents relevant to a given process may be reviewed by an auditor. It's usually best to identify and review the relevant documents prior to the audit.
 
R

Reg Morrison

#7
Re: Scope of External & Internal audit

Hello,
Is it correct that audits are done only on procedures and the rest (policies & work instructions) are "nice to do" that help support the audit process?
Processes should be audited, and one process may include more than one type of documented requirements. The idea of the audit should be to confirm that a process is operating in accordance with requirements.
Jim said it all. The basic goal of any audit is to ensure that a process has been implemented (as intended) and is effective. Policies, documents (at any level) and records/data need to be scrutinized to assess if the process is in place, is adequate and/or potential improvements could be made.

Trying to box oneself to audit only a certain level of documented media is antiquated thinking, when it comes to modern audit techniques.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Re: Scope of External & Internal audit

Thank you Jim & John for the response.

I understand that policies, objectives & instructions can be looked at during an audit but can an auditor give a non-conformity if for e.g. the procedure is up to date but the policies/objectives/instructions linked to that procedure is not up-to-date on the day of the audit?
Gav,

Only if the other documents are providing invalid information.

John
 
G

gavinfb

#9
Re: Scope of External & Internal audit

Thank you for your advice.

The "story" behind this question is, I recently taken the responsibility for ISO9001 and after a gap analysis in the quality mgt system I discovered that the documentation (policy, procedures, SOPs) are either:
- documented but not up-to-date with current practice
- not documented at all
- or each dept have some internal (not official) documentation to describe what is/isn't done.

I am trying to make a plan to address all of this in order of priorities but I have 5 months before the re-cert audit. Hence my "random" looking question :-|
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
Re: Scope of External & Internal audit

Thank you for your advice.

The "story" behind this question is, I recently taken the responsibility for ISO9001 and after a gap analysis in the quality mgt system I discovered that the documentation (policy, procedures, SOPs) are either:
- documented but not up-to-date with current practice
- not documented at all
- or each dept have some internal (not official) documentation to describe what is/isn't done.

I am trying to make a plan to address all of this in order of priorities but I have 5 months before the re-cert audit. Hence my "random" looking question :-|
Gav,

Remember to respect the undocumented procedures if their processes are effective.

You have no need to document your management system beyond that specified by 4.2.1d.

John
 
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