Scoring Scale for Internal Audits - Please help finding the right terms

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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#32
But a score of 100% speaks against the idea of continuous improvement, a system working a 100% don't any change??
TamTom,

Customers consistently move the (expectations) bar higher and higher. You must stay ahead by continuous improving the quality system, otherwise you'll fall behind. Once behind, your competitors will surpass you and put you out of contention very quick.

Stijloor.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#33
TamTom,

Customers consistently move the (expectations) bar higher and higher. You must stay ahead by continuous improving the quality system, otherwise you'll fall behind. Once behind, your competitors will surpass you and put you out of contention very quick.

Stijloor.
Sometimes, especially with the automotive industry, getting ahead is nearly impossible, and trying to stay ahead is futile:

Alice looked round her in great surprise. "Why, I do believe we've been under this tree the whole time! Everything's just as it was!"

"Of course it is,' said the Queen, "what would you have it?"

"Well, in OUR country," said Alice, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere else -- if you ran very fast
for a long time, as we've been doing."

"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, HERE, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place.
If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that"
(Lewis Carroll, from Through the Looking Glass)
 
V

vanputten

#34
I am going to bet that the original posters audit program is trying to determine complaince to requirements. An organization can have a compliance audit program or a performance audit program. A performance audit program (my term) looks not only for compliance but looks for ways to improve. A scoring system speaks to the level of compliance (not performance) at the time of the audit.

Continual improvement can always take place whether a process complies or not. How does one explain preventive action if continaul improvment can only happen when there is less than 100% compliance?

A fully compliant process or system can be continually improved BEYOND the base requirements at any time.

It is wrong to think that improvement can only happen when there is non-compliance to requirements. Improvement can happen anytime.
 

jkuil

Quite Involved in Discussions
#35
Hi,
Behind the score is an audit questionaire asking specific questions like
  • Is there a process description?
  • Does the department conincide with the process described?
  • Are the documents with requirements up to date?
  • Is it ensured that invalid documents are labelled as such and are not used unintentionally?
First of all, I doubt the use of questionairs as the only system governing the audit. I rather investigate the quality indicators, non-conformances, recent changes etc related to the audited process to define the scope of the audit. I pay more attention to those areas which might be non-conforming. Standard questionairs or lists of topics, just help me to assure I coverred all areas. I also hate doing an audit just by asking the questions on my form. It makes me feel stupid and keeps me away from asking the questions which are being raised through the findings during the audit.

Hi,
The questions can be answered with:
- requirements fully met = 10 points
- requirements partly met = 4 to 6 points
- requirements not met = 0 points
From the results of the single question an average is being calculated as percentage of fulfillment.
Has every question equal quality risks associated with them. failure of the requirements in one question may have a much severe impact on the output of the quality system than failure of meeting the requirements adressed by another question.
Also, the risks associated with each question might be different for each process. E.g. the question "Is there a process description" might be answered no. If your QMS is based on ISO 9001 and your proces is not one of the 6 areas for which a procedure is required, there is no non-confoarmance in having no process description. Especially, when even without the proces discription the process performance is well within its accetance criteria. However, if the process is not meeting the companies requirements a process description can be usefull as a preventive measure.
This is where the auditor comes in. It is his/her responsibility to provide a basic risk assessment of the observed non-conformities on the QMS (a detailed risk assessment must be performed by the auditees when defining the action plan). If you provide a rating it should be based on that assessment and not just a calculation of the scores. There is no appreciation in the skills of the auditor in doing the latter.
 
J

JaneB

#36
Jkuil,

All excellent points, and I strongly agree with you on almost everything.

I only query this point, when you say:
the question "Is there a process description" might be answered no. If your QMS is based on ISO 9001 and your proces is not one of the 6 areas for which a procedure is required, there is no non-confoarmance in having no process description. Especially, when even without the proces discription the process performance is well within its accetance criteria. However, if the process is not meeting the companies requirements a process description can be usefull as a preventive measure.
The way this seems to read to me is that a 'process description' and a 'procedure' are the same thing, which of course they aren't (was that your meaning?)

But I totally agree that a process doesn't have to have a document/written description, and with all the other points you make.
 
J

JaneB

#37
I am going to bet that the original posters audit program is trying to determine compliance to requirements.
I agree that it sounds so.
An organization can have a compliance audit program or a performance audit program.
Useful way of distinguishing between different types of audit program are good for clarity. But of course to meet the requirements of 9001, an organisation must have an audit program that goes beyond mere compliance. eg, Clause (b) of 8.2.2 "is effectively implemented and maintained" is clear on this.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#38
I agree that it sounds so.

Useful way of distinguishing between different types of audit program are good for clarity. But of course to meet the requirements of 9001, an organisation must have an audit program that goes beyond mere compliance. eg, Clause (b) of 8.2.2 "is effectively implemented and maintained" is clear on this.
But the system must be effectively implemented and maintained in order to be in compliance.:tg:
 
J

JaneB

#39
But the system must be effectively implemented and maintained in order to be in compliance.:tg:
You'd think so, wouldn't you? ;)

One could also argue that if one was simply auditing for 'compliance' that 'continuous improvement' should be part of that, too.
 

jkuil

Quite Involved in Discussions
#40
The way this seems to read to me is that a 'process description' and a 'procedure' are the same thing, which of course they aren't (was that your meaning?)
Trying not to get into a document control discussion here, but in short proces descriptions define the why (the company's objectives), procedures the who does what, when.
As the audit question mostly is "Do you have a procudere for...." I have put them together, which is actualy incorrect, but served the example I hope.
 
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