Second party audits - Supplier audits or product audits?

S

selena15

#1
hi cove
have nice start week
i have a question?
i'm trying to update the internals auditors list.this list showed the trainning
that my fellows got and the date of requalification.
one of the internal audit added to these list, an supplliers audits trainning.!!!
the supplier audit or product audits is included in external audits, isn't it ?
and in this case how can i include this fellow? internal or external auditor
and in fact when someone from a company audit the suppliers; does he called a external auditor or internal one or could he support the 2 charges ??
"Marc, in your amazing presentation of auditing skills for which i applaud you so much , you said in the 45th slide the following : internal audits do not typically include product audits in and of themselves. more typically; you will be reviewing the a product audits performed by soemone as a function of auditing the dock audit procedure"

the dock audit concerne the final product so this is internal; covering by the clause 8.2.2 because the ISO 9001 talk about the suppliers just in chapter 7.4.1 in order to evaluate them and approve them.
i'm confusing now, someone can helps me to figure out this issue
:thanx:
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Second party audits - Supplier audits or product audits

Internal audits required by ISO 9001 (and other similar standards) are typically audits of systems and how they are performing. In that mode, it is typical that 'audits' (most typically product or other 'results' audits) by employees at different places in your system will be looked at. This does, of course, depend upon the company. Some companies have no product 'audits'. Some have no final 'audit'. These are done internally, but the key is the purpose of the audit, and thus the type of audit.

The key here is in how you define 'Internal Audits', and more general the word 'audit'.

As to supplier audits, they may contain information you can use to improve your business systems and/or processes and/or products, but they are not related to, and do not count as, internal audits which are required by the standard.

NOTE: TS 16949 has additional requirements which you may have to take into consideration. For example, you may want to read this old discussion on Dock Audits. I think those were dropped from TS 16949, but the point is read TS 16949 carefully if that's the standard you have to meet.
 
S

selena15

#3
Second party audits - Supplier audits or product audits

Hi cove and thanks Mark
we aren't an automobile industry, so we aren't concerned by the TS 16949. and i made a mistake, it was the slide 52 and 53 not 45.
but we use the definition of ISO 9001 of audit and the ISO 19011. The internal
audit,i know, should schedule enough audits to cover the system and so. but it doesn't mean that i would count the suppliers one as internal audit. sorry if i'm repeating, it is just to be clear :D

but now i'm confusing about one point, as i inderstood from slides, the product audit is :
"A product audit is an assessment of the final product or service and its fitness for use evaluated against the intent of the purpose of the product or service" in this case, it can be showed as internal audit. isn't it ? but when i saw the : "internal audits do not typically include product audits in and of themselves. more typically; you will be reviewing the a product audits performed by soemone as a function of auditing the dock audit procedure" i'm confusing :confused:

now coming back to my list, how will you concerned your colleague if he's auditing and got trainning for audit suppliers? should i established a list with external auditor ???
and also, is there any specific trainning to become suppliers auditor, i'm asking because my felows sent me an email to inform me that he got an suppliers audit training!!!!
i will read the link that you sent me :thanks:
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#4
Re: Second party audits - Supplier audits or product audits

but now i'm confusing about one point, as i inderstood from slides, the product audit is :
"A product audit is an assessment of the final product or service and its fitness for use evaluated against the intent of the purpose of the product or service" in this case, it can be showed as internal audit. isn't it ? but when i saw the : "internal audits do not typically include product audits in and of themselves. more typically; you will be reviewing the a product audits performed by soemone as a function of auditing the dock audit procedure" i'm confusing...
A product audit or dock audit is performed on a regular basis as a part of the whole product realization process. An internal audit is not. But here there may be language issues. Here I'm defining Internal Audit as the audit performed to fulfill the requirement of the standard.

now coming back to my list, how will you concerned your colleague if he's auditing and got trainning for audit suppliers? should i established a list with external auditor ???
If you mean should you have it recorded somewhere that the person is trained, yes. I'm not sure what list you're referring to.

and also, is there any specific trainning to become suppliers auditor, i'm asking because my felows sent me an email to inform me that he got an suppliers audit training!!!!
Again, there is a language issue. I'm not sure what you are asking. Yes, a person can get Supplier Auditor training, just as one can get Internal Auditor training. Supplier Audit training could, I guess, be used as part of a 'knowledge base' to perform audits in your company. As to whether there are any specific requirements for a person to be trained to do Supplier Audits, if would depend on your company specific and/or customer requirements.

The important part for ANY auditor doing audits is that there be some type of training and competence evidence whether it is internal auditing, supplier auditing or other auditing.

Is that what you are asking?
 
P

pthareja

#5
Re: Second part audits - Supplier audits or product audits

Hi,

When one talks about Product Audit, the onus of responsibility may be placed lower than a process audit or both product + Process audit.
earlier till Dr Deming etc highlighted the role of processes in Quality Management, product audits were adequately relegated to a back seat. Then the realisation that process alone is not enough and the ISO 9001:2000 refusing to accredit organisations if the product did not satisfy ethical or statutary requirements.

I may be going offbeat. Yet .. To a second party auditor who intends to audit suppliers, the system maps mainly Process auditing. Product can be inspected. If Processes are mature, and conform to statues.. yes. The process of seeking competence must be controlled. So documentation vide ISO 9001:2000 standards clause 8.2.2 or 6.2. may be imperative.

Comparing the role of a clause and any assignment too is also tactical. See who is guilty at large.. the people/ process owners or the auditors. e.g. for purchase, essentially the fault may lie in 7.4, but if the the process spelt on incompetence at Internal Quality Audit stage, and one ( auditor) wants them to gear up in competency or care then the auditor may decide towards 8.2.2.

Hope it helps to converge towards establishment if requirements
Priyavrat Thareja
 
S

selena15

#6
Second part audits - Supplier audits or product audits

The list i’m speaking about is the list where you register all the persons from your company who have had audit training and did enough audit (3) to become internal auditor. This list is useful for the persons who want to make one audit: they can, from this list, know which; from our company are competent to make an internal audit, this list contain as information: the name, the date of the first training of audit, in which kind of ISO (9001, 14001., 17025), the number of audit where this persons had participate, the date of prequalification if this persons stayed too much time without doing or participant in any audit.

So, now as it is hopefully clear and there is not language issue. This training of suppliers audit can be listed in another document which contains just the external auditor? What is the difference of competence required by all these kind of audits?

A product audit or dock audit is performed on a regular basis as a part of the whole product realization process. An internal audit is not. But here there may be language issues. Here I'm defining Internal Audit as the audit performed to fulfill the requirement of the standard.”

…What you wrote concerning the product audit and that I bright in red is required by the point 7.1 (c) at ISO 9001. And in my mind, it isn’t an audit. This is control as written in the ISO, in order to see if the final product met the customer requirement. Aren’t you in accord with me? When in the first post I asked if the product audit; defined as it was, can be internal audit; i was talking about independent audit which can be planned in annual audit planning with another audits in order to cover the whole system and done by an independent person, but now, if it is involved into the product realization process; this is a routine of control that it is used to be done in order to verify the final product before to put it on the market. I would find the time to read this dock audit definition crrrrrrr.


From this; I would say how to make a difference between a control, audit, assessment, and evaluation??

Assessment: An estimate or determination of the significance, importance or value of something.
Audit: A planned, independent and documented assessment to determine whether agreed-upon requirements are met.
Quality Control: The operational techniques and activities that are used to fulfill requirements for 'quality'.
The definition of iso 9000 of control
Evaluation: The act of examining a process or item to some standard and forming certain conclusions as a result.
Examination: A measurement of goods or services to determine conformance to some specified requirement.

Showed like this, it is clear, but the issue is not that i don’t understand the meaning of all these and even I did; I got the French version of standard and I’m fluent in French J . The issue is in the current work, we got sometimes argues between colleagues concerning what is what. E g: these thread that i initiated lastly :
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=30828


http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=30828
 
S

selena15

#7
Second part audits - Supplier audits or product audits

Hi Priyavrat :thanks:
"To a second party auditor who intends to audit suppliers, the system maps mainly Process auditing. Product can be inspected. If Processes are mature, and conform to statues.. yes. The process of seeking competence must be controlled. So documentation vide ISO 9001:2000 standards clause 8.2.2 or 6.2. may be imperative."

thank for responding! but the subject of this thread isn't to establish the competancy. Of course, i wanted to make a difference between internal and external auditors and how to make difference when the external auditor is from the company as in the suppliers audits.

i sent my previous post before to see that you reacted. My worry is to distinguish between all this kinds of audits mainly in order to be able to answer when a kind of argue that i got before occur. I provided in my previous post the link of the thread where i talked about that discussion. For me, it was obvious that it wasn't audit but it was hard to explain it to the concerned persons.

hope some help on that topic :yes:
 
P

pthareja

#8
Re: Second part audits - Supplier audits or product audits

Thanks.

I have to be reading thoroughly between the lines of this post before I suitably react.

The kinda dock audits are really shore atleast for now between a delayed lunch!

P Thareja
 
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