"Shop Floor" Drawings vs. Design Drawings - First Article and In-Process Inspections

E

engr.post

#11
Re: "Shop Floor" Drawings vs. Design Drawings - First Article and In-Process Inspecti

I think my post has been mis-taken. To be a bit clearer than mud. I'm commenting upon on engineering drawings and engineering being 'released' from design offices to the shopfloor (though not completely but sharing more (not less) so products and services benefit).

And, I was making statements from an assumption of issuing only LDDs. Your point that another type of drawing could be at the toolroom/ modelling shop makes sense. The inspectors, I'm assuming, want a full drawing (like they've always used) and to know why the dimension is incorrect when they measure. The answer they normally get is to ignore it and the suggested corrective action to supply them an edited drawing. I thanked a number of good points - and before - replying to the OP. Then I set out other points to consider.

Good (informative) drawings (not to mention engg changes/revs) aren't always issued (e.g. to work). This can lead to a major task for someone outside the design office sourcing a better drawing. Especially if it has been CADified, databased, password protected, stored on a satellite server, cannot be printed etc. Speaking hypothetically: what happens when a piece of information is missing from a working drawing? I use an Assumption: that there is an information restricted (engineering) system in place. Can I reasonably predict/hypothesize behaviour will be something like this (with variation and other elements): the issue will be highlighted, a make-do with the working drawing will take place, the issue will begin to be considered more trouble than it's worth, the discrepancy will be ignored, it will be seen as irrelevant, if challenged on criticality then the response will be something like 'it's ok, no problem, 'they' know about it and this is an edited drawing'?

best
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
N

Neophyte

#12
Re: "Shop Floor" Drawings vs. Design Drawings - First Article and In-Process Inspecti

If I am reading your post correctly (if I am not it is more likely due to my lack of background than the clarity of your post), the engineering department at times puts out work that isn't perfect. That I know is probably a shock to everyone. When this happens they are very reluctant to correct whatever issues exist and in order to get anything done everyone else needs to create work arounds, that themselves cause a variety of other issues and problems; document control, etc....

Here it seems what is being looked for is the best work around, because the best solution is written off as "not going to happen".

I have inserted a lot from my personal experiences on dealing with drawing revision. I may have totally mischaracterized your situation and/or view point. If I have I apologize, but will use this as a point to place a fork in the road.

Why is it so hard for quality departments to get completely reasonable spec, tolerance, and drawings changes out of engineering departments with revised documents issued? I know some here are from design departments. Why is it that these departments always seem unwilling to simply issue new drawings when faced with obviously beneficial changes? And how is it that they are allowed this type of practice by upper management?
 
Q

QCAce

#13
Re: "Shop Floor" Drawings vs. Design Drawings - First Article and In-Process Inspecti

Why is it so hard for quality departments to get completely reasonable spec, tolerance, and drawings changes out of engineering departments with revised documents issued? I know some here are from design departments. Why is it that these departments always seem unwilling to simply issue new drawings when faced with obviously beneficial changes? And how is it that they are allowed this type of practice by upper management?
Usually because no one from manufacturing, the supplier, or quality points out that there is an unreasonable tolerance on the drawing during the design review stage. The tolerance only becomes unreasonable after they've accepted the drawing and then find out later when trying to make the parts that they can't hit the tolerance.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#14
Re: "Shop Floor" Drawings vs. Design Drawings - First Article and In-Process Inspecti

If I am reading your post correctly (if I am not it is more likely due to my lack of background than the clarity of your post), the engineering department at times puts out work that isn't perfect. That I know is probably a shock to everyone. When this happens they are very reluctant to correct whatever issues exist and in order to get anything done everyone else needs to create work arounds, that themselves cause a variety of other issues and problems; document control, etc....

Here it seems what is being looked for is the best work around, because the best solution is written off as "not going to happen".

I have inserted a lot from my personal experiences on dealing with drawing revision. I may have totally mischaracterized your situation and/or view point. If I have I apologize, but will use this as a point to place a fork in the road.

Why is it so hard for quality departments to get completely reasonable spec, tolerance, and drawings changes out of engineering departments with revised documents issued? I know some here are from design departments. Why is it that these departments always seem unwilling to simply issue new drawings when faced with obviously beneficial changes? And how is it that they are allowed this type of practice by upper management?
What you might be missing here is the reason for LDDs, which isn't to avoid precision or accuracy in tolerancing. It's normally applied to drawings for hard tooling where (a) a detailed print would possibly have hundreds of dimensions and (b) a solid CAD model also exists.

With regard to the hundreds of dimensional callouts, relatively few are necessary for ongoing dimensional verification. Some of them just describe the shape or general form of something, and size, for the most part, might not matter. It's also usually not worth the effort to try to apply precise tolerances to such things.

Use of LDDs usually doesn't obviate full layouts for tool qualification, but it does make things a lot easier for ongoing inspection.
 
N

Neophyte

#15
Re: "Shop Floor" Drawings vs. Design Drawings - First Article and In-Process Inspecti

Usually because no one from manufacturing, the supplier, or quality points out that there is an unreasonable tolerance on the drawing during the design review stage. The tolerance only becomes unreasonable after they've accepted the drawing and then find out later when trying to make the parts that they can't hit the tolerance.

Quite true. After, I posted I realized I sounded a bit... I don't know hostile. I hadn't meant too. Most of the actual engineers I've encountered have been quite reasonable about drawing changes, most issues really. The frustrations I've had over time with various employers or customers, have been with non-engineers or just elements of company culture in general. Things are always so complicated in the real world. :bonk:
 
E

engr.post

#16
Re: "Shop Floor" Drawings vs. Design Drawings - First Article and In-Process Inspecti

To clarify, the recommendation I favour is reject the use of a s/floor drwg and it being substituted for the existing engineering dwg (rev or not). On the technical detail this thread has been admirably covered, I'd like to return to the organisational point of view.

Information is power : if a drwg's limited then a decision determined this elsewhere (e.g. context assumption: engg design office). That type of decision involves what needs to be known, what another should have access to.., and (importantly) what is believed as needed to do the job/work. What is determined is in the edited drwg/release. At this point maybe it's reasonable to start thinking that's a good thing (politically) depending upon where 'you' (as in 'one') works within an organisation.
However, information is also powerful : and better for work. An engineering drawing well populated with information requires work. And an informed drwg requires reading. And read (more) information can be used to work. To relieve worrying about costs and time in such an organisation, paradoxically imagine being in an organisation where informed drwgs became edited drwgs became no drwgs necessary.

best
 
#17
The reason to have separate drawings is because the drawings are serving different purposes. Engineering drawings exist to fully define the part regardless of how it is made, who is building it, or who the customer is - they only control the form/fit/function of the part, period. Manufacturing and Inspection drawings relate to the process of fabricating or controlling the quality of the fabrication process, which is a completely different requirement.

It is certainly convenient to cram all information all departments want into the engineering drawing. However this creates long term problems in respect to change. For example, if the quality department wants to change their process for inspection (to inspect fewer dimensions for example). This is not an engineering change, therefore the engineering drawing should not change. It is only a process change regarding quality. Another example, suppose a customer requests that a certain dimension be inspected, and you make the same part for multiple customers, it would be beneficial to only inspect the parts going to the customer with the requirement, and not inspect ALL of the parts. This saves cost in manufacturing. I could go on with examples all day (I'm willing to bet most of you have experienced similar problems already).

It is better to allow the flexibility of making quality changes, without having to Revise the Engineering Print (Engineering Revisions usually require ECO's and have far and wide impacts, on higher level assemblies, customer, and vendors. Your system should not require an engineering change, simply due to the perception that it is simpler to put all information into one print.

Also, storing multiple prints is not a documentation "nightmare" if done correctly, there are many tools available today to store organize documentation exactly as you want it. A simple solution for this is to just make a field for what type of drawing it is (engineering or manufacturing) Then in the admin setting for manufacturing users click the checkbox that says "hide" next to this field if it is an engineering drawing. (virtually all data management systems have features like this built in, or they are simple to create) Presto, documentation is what is needed for long term success of the company, and, the file display looks exactly the same to the users that are concerned about it.
 
Last edited:
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
D Implementing 5S for Multiple Shop Floor Layout Workstations Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 2
A What KPI's do you use at Shop Floor Level and Team Boards? Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 4
M Proper Gauging - GD&T - Attribute gage to check true positioning on the shop floor Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 6
S Suggestions for a 100% Paperless Manufacturing Shop Floor Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 10
P Work Area (Production Shop Floor) Training Matrix Requirements Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
Q Reference Card for Dimensions at QC on the Shop Floor IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
S Color Coded Shirt System on our Shop Floor Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 18
T Eliminating "Hard Copy" Manuals from our Office and Shop Floor - Documentation Medium ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
Q Data on Quality and Productivity to Shop Floor Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 2
QMMike Control of Measurement Equipment on your Shop Floor Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 8
Kales Veggie Shop Floor Real Time SPC Inquiry Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 15
P How to Motivate Shop Floor Supervisors Manufacturing and Related Processes 42
C ASQ: Leadership from Ballroom to Boardroom and the shop floor ASQ - American Society for Quality 12
E Which control charts to monitor waste produced on the shop floor Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 5
K Time Management Presentation for Shop Floor Supervisors and Inspectors Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 1
T Calibration Process QC Laboratory vs. Calibration of Shop Floor Tools ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
P Should Forms printed for daily use in the shop floor be controlled documents? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 16
C SPC on the shop floor - We are a job shop Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 5
J Severity of Finding for "Past Due Gage" found on the shop floor General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 40
Anerol C How to Audit Shop Floor without Flow Diagram, Control Plan/PFMEA? Internal Auditing 5
A How to re-format a PFMEA so that shop floor people can use it FMEA and Control Plans 4
C QMS Needs a Shake Up! People on the shop floor really don't pay any attention to it Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 8
M Weighing scales to be used at each machine on the shop floor Manufacturing and Related Processes 6
C Drinks on the shop Floor? Stainless Steel Medical Devices ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
Q Gage Supplier - Need a 72" (min) Digital Read Out LLM for the Shop Floor General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
M Implementing Control Plans to issue to the shop floor FMEA and Control Plans 6
D "Shop-Floor Work Instruction" ? How important they are? Manufacturing and Related Processes 11
S Painting on Floor of Machine Shop - What Aspects/Impacts and Hazards to consider? Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 10
A Drive Measurements vs. Objectives to the shop floor level for all key processes ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
G Shop-floor temperature - Electro-mechanical Shopfloor set up Manufacturing and Related Processes 5
M Back-up "Emergency" procedures - Process to release shop prints to the floor ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
S Is it necessary to document a shop floor system? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 7
A Effective production control - Records that you maintain on the shop floor Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 1
J Laboratory Scope must include inspection stations out on the shop floor Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 9
D SPC training games - Basic training for manufacturing shop-floor guys and engineers Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 13
Geoff Cotton GM Shop Floor Excellence Initiative Customer and Company Specific Requirements 2
S GM (General Motors) Shop Floor Excellence Audit APQP and PPAP 11
S Seeking: Good, User Friendly, Cheap SPC Software for the Shop Floor Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 23
Q Do we need to have the documents on the shop floor stamped "VALID" ? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 3
R Gauge Repeatability and Reproducibility (Gage R&R) on all shop floor gages? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 15
T ISO 9001:2015 - Small Shop ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
qualprod Automation in manufacturing - Print Shop ISO 9001 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
B Product Safety Responsibility - Job shop such as a machine shop AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 10
JAMESH Building a "Lean" Job Shop Training Program Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 0
F AS9100D Process Matrix for a small cnc machine shop AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
T QMS Template Help - Small machine shop/job shop Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
J Starting from scratch - a plethora of challenges for a new Lumber Mill Machine Shop Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 11
T EN 10204 3.1 Inspection Certificate - Machine Shop Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 4
qualprod Criteria for print shop - How do you consider the cycle time in a print shop? Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 21
P Paint shop vs PPAP requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5

Similar threads

Top Bottom