Should a 3rd Party Auditor Audit against IATF rules and not just the ISO standard?

Manix

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#1
Hi All,

It's been a while, I know, I'm sorry! Hope you're all OK.

I am just reviewing our latest TS16949 re-cert audit NC's (all Minor thankfully! and I have just noted that one refers to Rule 6.5 of the IATF TS rules.

As far as I can see this finding relates to no clause in the standard, FYI the finding was:

Whilst TS 16949 elements have been cross referenced to procedures, the procedures have not been cross referenced to the processes defined in the process map (Rules 6.5).

Is this a valid NC? I'm not disputing its merit, but I don't think it's fair to audit us against something we as an organisation are not following (perhaps we should be!), we are certified to a standard that has clauses that we are bound to meet, but not the rules! The standard makes no requirement for the above specifically.

This is going down against why I am highly opposed to the methodology of certified and audited management systems. But that's a whole other subject that eventually I'll write a paper about, but for now I am after everyone's input on this. :)
 
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Curtis317

#2
Hi All,

It's been a while, I know, I'm sorry! Hope you're all OK.

I am just reviewing our latest TS16949 re-cert audit NC's (all Minor thankfully! and I have just noted that one refers to Rule 6.5 of the IATF TS rules.

As far as I can see this finding relates to no clause in the standard, FYI the finding was:

Whilst TS 16949 elements have been cross referenced to procedures, the procedures have not been cross referenced to the processes defined in the process map (Rules 6.5).

Is this a valid NC? I'm not disputing its merit, but I don't think it's fair to audit us against something we as an organisation are not following (perhaps we should be!), we are certified to a standard that has clauses that we are bound to meet, but not the rules! The standard makes no requirement for the above specifically.

This is going down against why I am highly opposed to the methodology of certified and audited management systems. But that's a whole other subject that eventually I'll write a paper about, but for now I am after everyone's input on this. :)
Not being active with in the Auditing scheme. I would think that the minor is beyond the Scope of the Audit. All audits have a defined scope. If the minor is not within the scope of the audit TS16949 then the minor finding does not apply. Any other thoughts?
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
#3
Hi All,

It's been a while, I know, I'm sorry! Hope you're all OK.

I am just reviewing our latest TS16949 re-cert audit NC's (all Minor thankfully! and I have just noted that one refers to Rule 6.5 of the IATF TS rules.

As far as I can see this finding relates to no clause in the standard, FYI the finding was:

Whilst TS 16949 elements have been cross referenced to procedures, the procedures have not been cross referenced to the processes defined in the process map (Rules 6.5).

Is this a valid NC? I'm not disputing its merit, but I don't think it's fair to audit us against something we as an organisation are not following (perhaps we should be!), we are certified to a standard that has clauses that we are bound to meet, but not the rules! The standard makes no requirement for the above specifically.

This is going down against why I am highly opposed to the methodology of certified and audited management systems. But that's a whole other subject that eventually I'll write a paper about, but for now I am after everyone's input on this. :)
There is no requirement for any kind of documented cross-referencing. I don't know whether you're referring to the IATF rules for accreditation, which apply to CBs, or the IATF auditor guide document, but it doesn't matter. You were being audited against 16949, and you should protest the NC.
 

Howard Atkins

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Leader
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#4
6.5 in the rules refers to Stage 1 and by definition is not relevant as this is a Re certification and no NCs can be issued at stage 1.

The rules are for the auditor BUT I must audit according to their requirements.

Further the standard says page viii

Remarks for certification
The certification to this Technical Specification, including customer-specific requirements if any, is recognized by the customer members of IATF when achieved according to the IATF certification scheme (see the ?Rules
for achieving IATF recognition?).
 

Manix

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#5
6.5 in the rules refers to Stage 1 and by definition is not relevant as this is a Re certification and no NCs can be issued at stage 1.

The rules are for the auditor BUT I must audit according to their requirements.

Further the standard says page viii
Thanks Howard, yes I do believe that this is part of the readiness review, I'm not entirely sure why they've been thrown in here, I think perhaps the auditor has become a bit confused about what he must audit versus what is audit-able!

I can see how this is useful at stage 1 and perhaps in a mature QMS you could use it as a gap analysis, but I'm not sure I see value in this being in the QM. 3rd party audits = :deadhorse: :notme:
 
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