Should a Registrar write a NC on something that was found during the Internal Audit

Should the Registrar write a NC for something identified during an Internal Audit?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 24.0%
  • No

    Votes: 19 76.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Trusted Information Resource
Re: Should the Registrar write a NC on something that was found during the Internal A

My interpretation is that the CB can not deny access to it's appeal handling process, which means, it has to provide it to an interested party.

Accessible is not the same thing as available. There is no requirement that a CB must even have a website.

Thanks Sidney for your interpretation.
 
W

winchm

Re: Should the Registrar write a NC on something that was found during the Internal A

:thanx:Right on Coury - the auditor should review the internal audit findings and management reviews. She/he can follow the audit trail if there's a chance there is a bigger issue; But the auditor should not write a verbatim deficiency. You can elect to object to the minor finding or tell registrar that you want a different auditor for next audit, or both.
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
Auditor demeanor?

If I missed a reference during this lengthy thread, just put it down to my elderly status, BUT
1) What was the auditor's (and his team, if there was one) demeanor or attitude during the audit and post audit review?

2) Did they seem friendly and convivial or did they have the "Kwality Kop" attitude that was so prevalent with audits of the 1994 edition Of ISO?

3) Did it appear (to you or any others involved from your side) that the auditors were being VERY inflexible and to the book?

4) Did you or any from your team take an opportunity to ask, "Where's the shall?" during the post audit review? If yes, how was the question received? helpful and responsive or huffy and offended you would even ask?

5) As you pass the issue up to managers at the registrar, what is THEIR attitude? Do they seem eager to resolve any conflicts or do they have an attitude of "You are wrong (GUILTY) until and unless YOU prove yourself innocent!"?

COMMENT:
Frankly, I am very surprised ANY issue between registrar and client would evoke as much emotion and apparent rancor as this one seems to have caused.

My own experience with numerous second and third party auditors for my own companies, suppliers, customers, and consulting clients has NEVER included a issue which couldn't be resolved by some reasonable conversation which resulted in one of the parties acknowledging an error or both parties agreeing to a compromise.

I'm not a big proponent of third party auditors, but I recognize they have a place in the scheme of business and my primary complaint has been against those who are lax and issue certificates of registration once the client's check clears. I have seen incompetent individual auditors and some competent ones with pi$$ poor people skills, but I have never seen an ENTIRE registrar company be incompetent, even when they are very lax in the rigor of the audit. There has ALWAYS been a voice of reason and competence within the organization with the power and authority to right a wrong.

SUGGESTION:
The following is one topic on which I speak with great authority - negotiation. The bulk of my forty plus year career is based on successful negotiation - always WIN-WIN!

Sometimes, just sometimes, personalities and egos get in the way of solutions. My own ego is bigger than most, but I willingly follow the Machiavellian concept: "No two great princes should meet without an intermediary." and frequently employ or deploy emissaries when I feel my own heat rising beyond rationality. It's a route to resolution you might consider.

At the very least, IF you can control your own emotions, it's often worthwhile and more efficient to marshal ALL your supporting data and go have a face-to-face meeting with the decision maker on his own territory - "beard the lion in his den" so to speak. It leaves him no option to say he can't produce necessary confirmation because "it's back at the office." IF you do go there, ask politely that there be NO INTERRUPTIONS and pointedly turn off your own cell phone and/or beeper. Only outgoing calls to garner data should be allowed, remaining on hold while it is gathered to emphasize the urgency of the request - no "call me back when you find it" to give any excuse for a stall. Everybody on your staff and his should be prepared to JUMP - the guy whose staff falls down on the job loses great "face" and authority in the negotiation.

It should be clear the session will last until agreement is reached - details can be left to staff to "clean up." Strange to say, the guy with more "rump power" to withstand a long session usually ends up with more of his key issues resolved in his favor.

Smile a lot and never, ever raise your voice - the first one to shout is a loser (in more ways than one.) Sometimes, very low whispers convey more emotion than the loudest shout! Watch old "Godfather" movies to see what I mean.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Trusted Information Resource
Re: Auditor demeanor?

If I missed a reference during this lengthy thread, just put it down to my elderly status, BUT
1) What was the auditor's (and his team, if there was one) demeanor or attitude during the audit and post audit review?

2) Did they seem friendly and convivial or did they have the "Kwality Kop" attitude that was so prevalent with audits of the 1994 edition Of ISO?

3) Did it appear (to you or any others involved from your side) that the auditors were being VERY inflexible and to the book?

4) Did you or any from your team take an opportunity to ask, "Where's the shall?" during the post audit review? If yes, how was the question received? helpful and responsive or huffy and offended you would even ask?

5) As you pass the issue up to managers at the registrar, what is THEIR attitude? Do they seem eager to resolve any conflicts or do they have an attitude of "You are wrong (GUILTY) until and unless YOU prove yourself innocent!"?

To answer all of the above, the Lead Assessor was inapproachable.

Wes Bucey said:
COMMENT:
Frankly, I am very surprised ANY issue between registrar and client would evoke as much emotion and apparent rancor as this one seems to have caused.

My own experience with numerous second and third party auditors for my own companies, suppliers, customers, and consulting clients has NEVER included a issue which couldn't be resolved by some reasonable conversation which resulted in one of the parties acknowledging an error or both parties agreeing to a compromise.

As I stated to answer your questions above.

Wes Bucey said:
I'm not a big proponent of third party auditors, but I recognize they have a place in the scheme of business and my primary complaint has been against those who are lax and issue certificates of registration once the client's check clears. I have seen incompetent individual auditors and some competent ones with pi$$ poor people skills, but I have never seen an ENTIRE registrar company be incompetent, even when they are very lax in the rigor of the audit. There has ALWAYS been a voice of reason and competence within the organization with the power and authority to right a wrong.

I wouldn't say that the Registrar or the Auditor was incompetent. Maybe a little inexperienced in the Product which we manufacture.

Wes Bucey said:
SUGGESTION:
The following is one topic on which I speak with great authority - negotiation. The bulk of my forty plus year career is based on successful negotiation - always WIN-WIN!

Good suggestion, that is why it was addressed with the Appeals Process.

Wes Bucey said:
Sometimes, just sometimes, personalities and egos get in the way of solutions. My own ego is bigger than most, but I willingly follow the Machiavellian concept: "No two great princes should meet without an intermediary." and frequently employ or deploy emissaries when I feel my own heat rising beyond rationality. It's a route to resolution you might consider.

At the very least, IF you can control your own emotions, it's often worthwhile and more efficient to marshal ALL your supporting data and go have a face-to-face meeting with the decision maker on his own territory - "beard the lion in his den" so to speak. It leaves him no option to say he can't produce necessary confirmation because "it's back at the office." IF you do go there, ask politely that there be NO INTERRUPTIONS and pointedly turn off your own cell phone and/or beeper. Only outgoing calls to garner data should be allowed, remaining on hold while it is gathered to emphasize the urgency of the request - no "call me back when you find it" to give any excuse for a stall. Everybody on your staff and his should be prepared to JUMP - the guy whose staff falls down on the job loses great "face" and authority in the negotiation.

It should be clear the session will last until agreement is reached - details can be left to staff to "clean up." Strange to say, the guy with more "rump power" to withstand a long session usually ends up with more of his key issues resolved in his favor.

Smile a lot and never, ever raise your voice - the first one to shout is a loser (in more ways than one.) Sometimes, very low whispers convey more emotion than the loudest shout! Watch old "Godfather" movies to see what I mean.

There was no heat between the Lead Assessor and me. It was a matter of choice to utilize the tools available, the Appeals Process. There was no emotional stress involved here. I have been around too long not to be able to control the emotional side. It was decision that I made, being rational and knowing when and where to choose the Battlegrounds. As simple as that.
 
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Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Trusted Information Resource
Re: Should the Registrar write a NC on something that was found during the Internal A

The Appeals process is now started. Once I get the ruling, I will provide some insight.

Continue to post your comments on this thread, it is a definite learning thread for all Covers.

Here is the status of the Appeal:

7 out of 13 Minor NC's were removed for being invalid.

This just goes to show that if the system is followed, there will be results.

I am not disappointed with these results (even though I would have preferred all of them).

Covers, please make sure that if you feel strong about something, and have the standards to support it, don't be afraid to use the system. That is what it is for.

Now, even though I used the Appeals Process as my Battleground, it does not mean that you need to be afraid, or nervous about challenging any results of the External (3rd Party) audit on the spot. Just choose when and where, and have the backup data, and choose your Battleground.

Stand your ground and use the tools that are available.
 
Last edited:

GStough

Leader
Super Moderator
Re: Should the Registrar write a NC on something that was found during the Internal A

Here is the status of the Appeal:

7 out of 13 Minor NC's were removed for being invalid.

This just goes to show that if the system is followed, there will be results.

I am not disappointed with these results (even though I would have preferred all of them).

Covers, please make sure that if you feel strong about something, and have the standards to support it, don't be afraid to use the system. That is what it is for.

Now, even though I used the Appeals Process as my Battleground, it does not mean that you need to be afraid, or nervous about challenging any results of the External (3rd Party) audit on the spot. Just choose when and where, and have the backup data, and choose your Battleground.

Stand your ground and use the tools that are available.

Thanks for the update, Coury. That is good news for you! :agree1:
And it was all handled in a rather timely manner, too. Good deal....
 
P

Penny Riordan

Re: Should the Registrar write a NC on something that was found during the Internal A

To me, this is just another example of an auditor creating additional paperwork that is not in the best interest of the client. The company has already recognized the problem and is addressing it. A simple observation would have done the trick. And even if the auditor didn't make an observation, any auditor worth his/her salt would find it on the next surveillance audit.

Every company, at the completion of every audit, should ask themselves, "What did this audit do to make me a better company?' And if the answer is NOTHING, they should be questioning the value of the audits.

Just my two cents.
 
T

the_seeker

Re: Should the Registrar write a NC on something that was found during the Internal A

I didn't see in Coury's OP that this was a TS 16949 audit. Did I miss something?

And if I did, this is just the kind of crap that makes me glad I'm out of automotive.

The registrar has a responsibility to record all existing non-conforming conditions that are found in the sample audit. This way, future audits can determine if the corrective / preventive actions taken were effective. If the problem is being resolved, it should not matter if the external auditor opens 'another' NC. The same actions taken to close the internal NC should suffice for the external NC.

I don't understand why being 'automotive' has anything to do with this.
 
H

Hanr3

Re: Should a Registrar write a NC on something that was found during the Internal Aud

Not a NC, however a Kudos. Your system is working. Good job!:applause:
I would include it in my report for several reasons. 1) Evidence your system is working, 2) Kudos to the company for continually improving, and 3) as a reminder to follow up on that CAR during the next audit.

In 6 months when I come back, if your solution wasn't effective, now we have a problem. Now I have to write a NC. What is the hurry to write a NC? Give the company a chance to correct the problem.


In case you missed it.
The internal audit CAR is a positive for the company.
I would record the non-conformity in my report, however it is not recorded as a finding, yet. It is recorded as a positive reflection on the ISO system in place. A strength.
The CB is aware of the problem and that the company has discovered it and is in the process of addressing it. Continaully Improving.
Being in the report is my reminder to follow up on it during the next audit. I will be looking for evidence the root cause was effective.
Lastly, you can tell management that your Internal Audit program is effective, and that your ISO system is functioning.


If your there to look for defects you need to review being a Auditor. The old school method of inspecting defects out of the system has been proven time and again not to fix the process. Dinging the company for a known defect is the same as inspecting defects out of the system. ISO is a Continual Improvement Process. Your looking for complaince and suggestions so tehy can improve thier system. Inspecting for failures is not continual improvement.

What good comes from a NC on something they already know is a problem?
The Auditor is not the enemy, don't act like it. Your there to help them improve thier system. Your looking for compliance and suggesting ways they can improve thier ISO system. Help them get to the next ISO level.
 
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