Should CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine) programs be controlled?

KIDDO

Involved In Discussions
#1
:bigwave: Covers

I'm in the middle of a rather "heated" debate :mad: as to whether or not CMM programs should be controlled.

I think they should be due to the fact that if users are not aware when changes are made, bad things could happen. I've suggested implementing user names and passwords to the software so not "everyone" has access to them but the "administrator" still isn't buying in. Can anyone else give me suggestions to solidify my point :agree:

thanks again,
KIDDO:biglaugh:
 
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A

alspread

#2
Re: Should cmm programs be controlled?

The following is just a portion of a paragraph from UTC's (Pratt & Whitney, Sikorsky, Hamilton Standard, etc) 8 page procedure for control of non-deliverable software covering just the verification and validation of CMM programs.

"Verification and Validation:
 Define the Verification and Validation process.
 Test procedure or test description and results shall be documented,
reviewed and retained.
 Provide objective evidence that the software performs its required
function.
 Trace software to requirements.
 Inspection review and approval of software must be performed by
someone acting in an acknowledged product integrity role. Software used
to verify quantitative values (e.g., CMM, etc.) requires an independent
method of validation (i.e., layout inspection, fixture check or comparison
with another CMM program previously verified by an independent
method) and correlation of the two sets of results.
 Acceptable correlation requires the difference to be within 10% of the
tolerance for each characteristic. Differences greater than 10% but
not exceeding 25% may be acceptable with documented justification.
 Differences greater than 25% are not acceptable.
 Variable data shall be recorded and retained."


Customers of aerospace machined components put heavy controls on non-deliverable software (i.e. CMM programs, NC programs, test stand programs, etc.)

AS9100 also requires:
"7.5.1.3 Control of Production Equipment, Tools and Software Programs
Production equipment, tools and software programs used to automate and control/monitor product realization processes, shall be validated prior to release for production and shall be maintained."


Good luck
 
H

Hodgepodge

#3
Re: Should cmm programs be controlled?

:bigwave: Covers

I'm in the middle of a rather "heated" debate :mad: as to whether or not CMM programs should be controlled.

I think they should be due to the fact that if users are not aware when changes are made, bad things could happen. I've suggested implementing user names and passwords to the software so not "everyone" has access to them but the "administrator" still isn't buying in. Can anyone else give me suggestions to solidify my point :agree:

thanks again,
KIDDO:biglaugh:
ISO 9001:2008
7.6 Control of monitoring and measuring equipment
The organization shall determine the monitoring and measurement to be undertaken and the monitoring and measuring equipment needed to provide evidence of conformity of product to determined requirements. The organization shall establish processes to ensure that monitoring and measurement can be carried out and are carried out in a manner that is consistent with the monitoring and measurement requirements. Where necessary to ensure valid results, measuring equipment shall
a) be calibrated or verified, or both, at specified intervals, or prior to use, against measurement standards traceable to international or national measurement standards; where no such standards exist, the basis used for calibration or verification shall be recorded (see 4.2.4);
b) be adjusted or re-adjusted as necessary;
c) have identification in order to determine its calibration status;
d) be safeguarded from adjustments that would invalidate the measurement result;
…When used in the monitoring and measurement of specified requirements, the ability of computer software to satisfy the intended application shall be confirmed. This shall be undertaken prior to initial use and reconfirmed as necessary.
If you intend to comply with the bolded portions of ISO 9001 there must be some sort of control. From your description of the scenario, it sounds like your administrator feels like he has it under control. Ask how the programs are controlled. If the method of control seems adequate, document it. If the method doesn’t seem adequate, then determine the process results. Are discrepant products being shipped? How do you know? If there has never been a problem then it sounds like the process is sound. Just define the controls in such a way that they can be maintained if and when new employees come along.
When the people responsible are involved in the creation of process controls, they are more likely to buy in. Good luck.
 
B

Brunetta

#4
Re: Should cmm programs be controlled?

:bigwave: Covers

I'm in the middle of a rather "heated" debate :mad: as to whether or not CMM programs should be controlled.
Ummm...This inquiring mind wants to know....what are CMM programs? :eek:
Thanks,
Brunetta
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#5
Re: Should cmm programs be controlled?

Ummm...This inquiring mind wants to know....what are CMM programs? :eek:
Some CMMs can be computer controlled - they automatically go through the inspection process, touching or viewing (if vision CMM) the points, sometimes changing probes, etc. and generating a report.

If you run the same program, the idea is you get repeatable results. But, sometimes people change them, either temporarily, to check a similar part (then forget to change it back) or "improve" it (without documenting the change - then suddenly people are getting different data). Or worse, they use it and accidentally delete it, and there is no backup. The debate is likely only heated for people that never had those things happen to them. For those that have, it's a no-brainer.

Does that help?
 

KIDDO

Involved In Discussions
#6
Re: Should cmm programs be controlled?

Thank you all for your responses. I have reference the ISO/TS standard requirements and some advice from here. Referencing the standard (the "Bible") I think has proven my point ;)
 
B

Brunetta

#7
Re: Should cmm programs be controlled?

Some CMMs can be computer controlled - they automatically go through the inspection process, touching or viewing (if vision CMM) the points, sometimes changing probes, etc. and generating a report.

If you run the same program, the idea is you get repeatable results. But, sometimes people change them, either temporarily, to check a similar part (then forget to change it back) or "improve" it (without documenting the change - then suddenly people are getting different data). Or worse, they use it and accidentally delete it, and there is no backup. The debate is likely only heated for people that never had those things happen to them. For those that have, it's a no-brainer.

Does that help?
Yes and No but that was mostly my fault for not asking specifically what the CMM acronym meant.

Just to be sure (and after doing some google searches on CMM and using the context of the discussion) please confirm we are talking about CMM as a Capability Maturity Model?

I work in an environment where the same acronym can stand for completely different things. For example: FOB can mean freight on board or it could mean forward operating base. Probably not the best example but you get the idea.

:topic:
(recovering from two different bouts of stomach flu over two weeks here so all my synapses may not be firing correctly just yet)

~Brunetta
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Re: Should cmm programs be controlled?

Yes and No but that was mostly my fault for not asking specifically what the CMM acronym meant.

Just to be sure (and after doing some google searches on CMM and using the context of the discussion) please confirm we are talking about CMM as a Capability Maturity Model?

I work in an environment where the same acronym can stand for completely different things. For example: FOB can mean freight on board or it could mean forward operating base. Probably not the best example but you get the idea.

:topic:
(recovering from two different bouts of stomach flu over two weeks here so all my synapses may not be firing correctly just yet)

~Brunetta
CMM is a Coordinate Measuring Machine.

An advanced piece of inspection equipment controlled by a computer.

Stijloor.
 
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