Should I purchase a Quality System Kit?

F

flymarla

#1
The company I work for has no quality system what so ever. I am a manufacturing engineer who has been asked develop and execute quality control processes and procedures to improve quality. I have no idea where to even start. We have no quality system in our engineering or our fabrication and both are in dire need. I am considering purchasing a "Quality System Kit" that comes with a quality manual, checklists, reports, forms, etc., just to have someplace to start. The one I am looking at is at a company with the logo AT-PQC, I'm a newb so I can't post a link, but I googled "How do I start a quality program?" and found it. Has anybody been successful using something like this or even this particular companies kits?

Does anyone have a better idea for how to get started?
 
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Pancho

wikineer
Super Moderator
#2
The company I work for has no quality system what so ever. I am a manufacturing engineer who has been asked develop and execute quality control processes and procedures to improve quality. I have no idea where to even start. We have no quality system in our engineering or our fabrication and both are in dire need. I am considering purchasing a "Quality System Kit" that comes with a quality manual, checklists, reports, forms, etc., just to have someplace to start. The one I am looking at is at a company with the logo AT-PQC, I'm a newb so I can't post a link, but I googled "How do I start a quality program?" and found it. Has anybody been successful using something like this or even this particular companies kits?

Does anyone have a better idea for how to get started?
Hi, Flymarla!

ISO 9001 is a world recognized standard for quality systems. It is relatively easy to implement, but it does take some months to do it right. Successful implementation will improve your organization's quality, efficiency and profits.

Canned systems may provide some assistance and examples for your documentation, but no more. Do not expect these to cut the time and effort required to get your system really working.

The ISO/TC176 ISO 9001 Handbook for Small Business is a great introduction to ISO 9001 Quality Management Systems. You can get it as a pdf through the ANSI store. Also get a copy of the standard itself. After that, you should hire an experienced, local consultant who can help you through the process of creating your documentation with periodic meetings and answering the many questions that are sure to come up.

Getting a QMS up an running is quite exciting. Two years ago we started on the same path you're stepping onto now. We got registered almost one year ago and now we are quite proud of our system and of the improvement we've experienced.

Good luck!
Pancho

------

P.S. The "Handbook for Small Business" is based on ISO 9001-2000, while the current standard is ISO 9001-2008. Do not worry about the different years. The differences between the two versions of the standard are very, very small.
 
#3
There are much better things to spend your money on. If you don't know your way around a quality system, or have no-one to help you - as Pancho correctly says - you'll waste time or end up with a sub-standard set of documentation. They are simply 'snake oil' for people who don't want to understand ISO, need to get registered and want it quick - or similar. IMHO, they should have a warning label on them!

For the kind of money you'd have spent on a kit and wasted trying to get it to fit, you'd be better off with a good outsider who will work with you (flexibly) to create a documented system. Craig Cochran's book is probably the best you could buy - others say so!
 
J

JaneB

#4
Flymarla,
IF you can get a good one, then I believe that such a thing can shorten the whole project and be of considerable help. But I repeat if and only ifit's a 'good one', because there are some pretty darned ordinary things out there, not to mention things that are a pain in the rear and a waste of $ and time.

In order to decide if it's 'good' or not, I'd suggest look closely at what previous customers have said, and aim to get in touch with a couple and discuss what their experience was. Also, look for a money-back guarantee (if it wasn't you wanted/needed/expected).

In general, most people here (in the Cove) are strongly anti such things and very pro 'do it all by yourself' - I completely understand this because I've seen some godawful supposed DIY things myself.

But... it can take quite a long time to learn about it and do it all yourself, and while yes, there are a lot of helpful things in the Cove and a lot of helpful people, it certainly does take considerable time to sort through various attachments, listen to (sometimes conflicting advice), figure out what's what, etc etc. A good kit can - or should - help shorten that time-line and speed up the learning required.

But please note: This advice should not be considered as completely without bias, because I do sell a DIY ISO 9001 Pack . However I'm putting that in to disclose only, as I am not writing either to flog it to you nor urge you toward it (its main focus is service and project-based businesses, wanting to achieve 9001 certification with a simple & practical system).
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
Wow! You and your organization have an extraordinary journey ahead of you.

Pancho , Andy, and Jane have all kind of nibbled around the edge of what you and your organization will ultimately have to go through in order to have a smooth-running, efficient, and effective quality system.

Sadly, there is no "one right way" for every organization to achieve such a goal. Depending on the size of your organization, the scope of operations, the intelligence and attitude of your top bosses, the budget of time and money, the task could be a snap, resolved in six months or less. Alternately, it could drag out to a years-long process, beset by money- and time-wasting traps along the way.

Trust me when I state it will be a much more difficult task if the top bosses are not involved and eager from the very onset.

When we talk about consultants, let's be clear most organizations require the OK of a top boss before a consultant can be hired. That doesn't mean, though, that consultants can't be interviewed, given an opportunity to look over the operation, and give an estimate of what they think it will cost in time and money and how well they will be able to leave the continued operation in your hands.

In most cases (some exceptions), it is best to steer clear of consultants or "systems" which promise to deliver a turn key quality system without any effort or learning on the part of bosses and employees. There are literally thousands of self-termed consultants who will come in and give you a generic quality manual and "procedures" exactly like some other organization, the only difference being a word processor "search and replace" to insert your organization's name in all the appropriate places. If your organization is exactly like thousands of others, then such a deal just might work. One such consultant I learned of actually stole the Motorola Quality Manual back in the early 90s and retyped the whole thing into a word processing program, then went out and sold it to unsuspecting organizations ranging in size from mom and pop to those with thousands of employees, changing only the organization name. It resulted in a three man machine shop having a quality manual that described five layers of hierarchy in the production department.

If I were a consultant asked to provide an estimate, I'd insist on meeting with the top bosses to gauge their attitude toward the project. Often, as many consultants who visit here in the Cove will tell you, the top boss is the biggest stumbling block, not because he is actively hostile, but because he doesn't attach much importance to the project, considering it a "nuisance" requirement of some fussy customer and not really necessary at all. Sometimes, the bosses will say they are fully on board, but their actions tell an opposite tale.

As this thread progresses, some writers will ask you for details about the size and scope of your organization, even the field of business (some fields are more heavily regulated than others and require special considerations.)

The more information you are able to provide without compromising trade secrets or competitive data, the better you will enable Cove members to focus on your situation.

Hey! Good luck! It is better to take some time to think through your options at this point than to leap blindly ahead, perhaps up blind alleys.

In light of Jane's disclosure, I also disclose I am a consultant for hire (Wes Bucey offers service as "Strategy Advisor" - Seeking Case Studies for Book), but I am not pitching for your business.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
The company I work for has no quality system what so ever. I am a manufacturing engineer who has been asked develop and execute quality control processes and procedures to improve quality. I have no idea where to even start. We have no quality system in our engineering or our fabrication and both are in dire need. I am considering purchasing a "Quality System Kit" that comes with a quality manual, checklists, reports, forms, etc., just to have someplace to start. The one I am looking at is at a company with the logo AT-PQC, I'm a newb so I can't post a link, but I googled "How do I start a quality program?" and found it. Has anybody been successful using something like this or even this particular companies kits?

Does anyone have a better idea for how to get started?
Personal learning of the quality management system is far more good than purchasing a kit of any type. You have to stitch a good QMS for your organization around the ISO 9001 quality principles. I would tend to agree if you say there is no quality system there whatsoever, but that some system exists I always believe. Your attempt must be to do a good gap analysis and pick areas to repair first in all the present systems and improve upon any good practice that exists. I always believe you will find some positives in any system and it is all how you spot them and understand them and map them into making a good QMS. No money on Kits, put more time to understanding and training and make a good realistic plan how you want to build from where you are .... Good luck.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#7
In my opinion, you would best be served by learning the ISO 9001:2008 standard before doing anything else. That will give you some knowledge on the topic and help you to better evaluate your course. Start by getting a copy of the standard and reading it. Then consider taking a two or three day internal auditor's training class. Additional reading such as the before mentioned book by Cochran would also be beneficial.

If you do this, you will be better prepared to determine if a "kit" will be helpful and better able to evaluate a potential consultant.

In a perverted sort of way, I like the kits. Not because they are particularly useful, but because when a company flounders while trying to implement them they discover that they need a consultant.
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#8
The company I work for has no quality system what so ever. I am a manufacturing engineer who has been asked develop and execute quality control processes and procedures to improve quality. I have no idea where to even start. We have no quality system in our engineering or our fabrication and both are in dire need. I am considering purchasing a "Quality System Kit" that comes with a quality manual, checklists, reports, forms, etc., just to have someplace to start. The one I am looking at is at a company with the logo AT-PQC, I'm a newb so I can't post a link, but I googled "How do I start a quality program?" and found it. Has anybody been successful using something like this or even this particular companies kits?

Does anyone have a better idea for how to get started?
I am sure you have systems in place. How else do you keep your business afloat, manufacture products, find customers?

A first step would be to identify and document these processes (one of the basis of ISO 9000), how they interact, who is responsible and has authority, what are the goals and objectives, how are they measured, how are they controlled and improved.

Although called a quality system, it is better approached as a business system.

Do not get hang up in procedures, logs, lists, forms. Some are necessary, but easily too many are created and will bog down your company and everyone will hate it.

Start with visiting some "small" companies in your area that are ISO. Contact your local ASQ section as a start.
 
F

flymarla

#9
Wow - I am so thankful for all the responses! I took notes! I wish I had posted sooner!

From reading the responses I would like to give a little more information and ask a few more questions.

Our company is small, about 40 people in the office and 20 people in the shop. We design equipment and processing systems for other factories. We fab about 30% in house and 70% is buy-out. I work directly for the president and co-owner of the company. He wants our quality to improve and our customers to be happy. I don't think he cares about having any type of certification - I would have to convince him that working to a standard (such as ISO) is worth doing due the results it would create. This is a better place to be in than having a boss that wants the registration for it's name value but doesn't really want it to affect the business. I may actually be better off taking the concepts of ISO but not presenting it as ISO. Except that I need approval to buy the tools, training etc. to figure out for myself what what I'm doing. My background is Lean Manufacturing Implementation in companies that were already ISO so this is the greenest field I've every worked with. But my past experience is not really helping me because it has never entailed starting from scratch.

So my questions:

1. My boss does not have vested interest in calling ourselves ISO he just wants us to make our customers happy and our processes profitable. From reading your posts I would love to grab on to ISO and have a structure to follow because otherwise I feel like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel. Thus my researching buying a kit. I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I don't have the time or experience to be successful if I did.
In my situation is ISO the way to go and how do I convince my boss that ISO will bring him the benefits he is after?

2. A couple people recommended Craig Cochran's book, but didn't say which one. I googled him and found 4 books including "ISO 9001 in Plain English" is that the one you were recommending I start with?

3. We recently entered into a joint venture with a European company. I'm guessing that ISO being an international standard will serve us as well in the European community as the domestic?

Thanks again for all your advise, looks like I will need to start the new year off with my head in many books, handbooks, and standards!
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
<snip>So my questions:

1. My boss does not have vested interest in calling ourselves ISO he just wants us to make our customers happy and our processes profitable. From reading your posts I would love to grab on to ISO and have a structure to follow because otherwise I feel like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel. Thus my researching buying a kit. I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I don't have the time or experience to be successful if I did.
In my situation is ISO the way to go and how do I convince my boss that ISO will bring him the benefits he is after?
Your boss already stated some objectives for the quality management system. You don't have to call yourself ISO. If your intent is to eventually become registered, that is going to be your choice.

2. A couple people recommended Craig Cochran's book, but didn't say which one. I googled him and found 4 books including "ISO 9001 in Plain English" is that the one you were recommending I start with?
Yes.

3. We recently entered into a joint venture with a European company. I'm guessing that ISO being an international standard will serve us as well in the European community as the domestic?
Yes.

Thanks again for all your advise, looks like I will need to start the new year off with my head in many books, handbooks, and standards!
You're very welcome. Happy New Year.
 
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