Should I Request/Submit a PPAP from/to a Supplier/Customer for only Repackaging Parts

B

bhaskaran1

#1
We are repackaging a part with a supplier (only repackaged done by this supplier), do I need to get a ppap from them and also should I submit a new ppap to customer for this repackaging. Please let me know.

Thank you

Bhaskaran
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Should I Request/Submit a PPAP from/to a Supplier/Customer for only Repackaging P

Has your customer requested PPAP and a PSW?
 
#3
Re: Should I Request/Submit a PPAP from/to a Supplier/Customer for only Repackaging P

See first Marc's comment above, and let me also ask, did your Customer request this change?

Does this packaging flow through to your Customer, or do you remove, and otherwise use or re-package the product?

In my experience, generally this does not go the route of PPAP, but there will be expectations of a documented standard plan and other analysis, whether the packaging is expendable, returnable, or a plan is required for both. This is usually accomplished using Customer-prescribed forms and standards, for example GM1738 requirements. This may be driven more by the Customer's Purchasing group than their Quality group, but your Quality contact should be able to point you in the right direction.
 
N

ncwalker

#4
Re: Should I Request/Submit a PPAP from/to a Supplier/Customer for only Repackaging P

OK. I am a customer and this is making me cringe a little bit.

I am not sure what Roberticus intended with his question of "Did the customer request the change?" I can tell you this, the decision of PPAP or not PPAP is not made based on this question. If something changes from the original PPAP, then you PPAP the change. It may not be a FULL PPAP, it probably won't be. (If it is, you have a paranoid supplier quality engineer at your customer location, that's the risk). But you should PPAP it.

Here's a scenario I have been through myself at least 3 times....

Let's say you PPAP to me your normal process. Then, perhaps in an internal cost savings exercise, you decide to introduce your sub-supplier to repackage and don't tell me about it. I mean, come on, what could happen with just repackaging?

Then after this, you have a quality problem and we go into containment. In the investigation of where all the stock is that has to be sorted, it comes out that there's a population at this external supplier and I find out under these circumstances. OR let's say we begin examining parts for date codes and we have a "repeat issue" because your external supplier has poor FIFO and old parts get reintroduced to my line and a problem appears and in your 8D it comes out as "FIFO problems at external packaging supplier ...."

If you are a crazy good supplier who NEVER gives me problems and I genuinely like, I may look the other way. BUT ... if you give me trouble at all, and not even quality trouble, maybe your sales guy is loudmouth bore and has my purchasing person in a snit, you are opening yourself up to a world of hurt and cost. Because at that point, I can make you jump through all sorts of hoops and pain DEMONSTRATING that this has no effect. I will tie up your labs doing stupid tests, I will tie up your engineers producing 8Ds and A3s over and over again because I don't like them. My purchasing team will come after you for a "cut" of the cost savings you had from moving the repackaging process out. And if you don't give me one, I will beat you into a corner for discounts on my next program.

If I take the purist view of the APQP/PPAP process, you need to PPAP it because it is a change, even though it doesn't "affect" the part. It is a change.

If I take the business view, every time you decide to make a change without telling me, you potentially risk exposing your weak underbelly to me at a later date. And I WILL take advantage of it.

Having said all this - if you DO decide to tell me - I may say "I don't want you to change." I may also say "Where's my cut of the savings?" So there's definitely risk to your bottom line in telling me. Especially if I am a clueless supplier quality guy. You may have to do extra work.

These are the risks you need to weigh. Because business DO decide to change things and not tell. It happens more often than people admit.

OK - Advice mode: If it were me, I would tell the customer. But I would NOT call the guy up and say "Hey, I need to move the repacking operation, what do you need?" THAT opens the door to his paranoia. AND the question "Where's my cut?" You need to STEER your customer. Customer's understand that there is the need for change. If you approach them with a change request and that's it, they will pounce.

You need to say "Hey Mr. Customer, we have identified a problem that we feel puts the product at risk. And we want to move the repacking to this location ...." Then, come up with a reason why it protects me. Because if you are doing it to save money, I'm going to want my cut. Maybe you say "Our manufacturing floor is getting crowded and we can't maintain the cleanliness of your parts, so this is our solution." Or, "We are working on our early containment and want an offsite control area." Point is, sell me on the fact that the change will help me to distract me from the cost savings aspect.

THEN you say "And, to ensure there is no change to the product, we are proposing THIS Level 4 PPAP with these elements..." And select ones that are reasonable and will make me think you are protecting me.

That should work.
 

Solinas

Involved In Discussions
#5
Re: Should I Request/Submit a PPAP from/to a Supplier/Customer for only Repackaging P

Have you been my customer?
Seriously - great post.

"... BUT ... if you give me trouble at all, and not even quality trouble, maybe your sales guy is loudmouth bore and has my purchasing person in a snit, you are opening yourself up to a world of hurt and cost. Because at that point, I can make you jump through all sorts of hoops and pain DEMONSTRATING that this has no effect. I will tie up your labs doing stupid tests, I will tie up your engineers producing 8Ds and A3s over and over again because I don't like them. My purchasing team will come after you for a "cut" of the cost savings you had from moving the repackaging process out. And if you don't give me one, I will beat you into a corner for discounts on my next program."
 
#6
Re: Should I Request/Submit a PPAP from/to a Supplier/Customer for only Repackaging P

Have you been my customer?
Seriously - great post.

"... BUT ... if you give me trouble at all, and not even quality trouble, maybe your sales guy is loudmouth bore and has my purchasing person in a snit, you are opening yourself up to a world of hurt and cost. Because at that point, I can make you jump through all sorts of hoops and pain DEMONSTRATING that this has no effect. I will tie up your labs doing stupid tests, I will tie up your engineers producing 8Ds and A3s over and over again because I don't like them. My purchasing team will come after you for a "cut" of the cost savings you had from moving the repackaging process out. And if you don't give me one, I will beat you into a corner for discounts on my next program."
And thus the argument about the actual validity of the entire PPAP concept. Such abuses are not honorable, sustainable, and violate one of the ISO core concepts of mutually beneficial supplier relationships.

And don't try to tell me it doesn't happen.
 

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Staff member
Admin
#7
Re: Should I Request/Submit a PPAP from/to a Supplier/Customer for only Repackaging P

The bottom line is if a change is anticipated it should be discussed with the customer prior to any change assuming it is not a catalogue item.

If a supplier is making a change, that change may affect your customer so it should be discussed with the customer as well.

Technically any change to the material(s), the process(es) and such, even down stream from you, is a contract change. And, typically if PPAP was originally required, one will also be required for any change. A full PPAP may or may not be required, but until the proposed change is discussed there is no way to know. The proposed change must be discussed and from that will come new requirements, if any.

I do agree with Jim in that hostility between the customer and the supplier is not only unnecessary, it is always counter-productive.
 
N

ncwalker

#8
Re: Should I Request/Submit a PPAP from/to a Supplier/Customer for only Repackaging P

At Solinas: Yes. Maybe. It doesn't really matter, MOST customers act the same. (I have them to).

At Big Jim: Seconded. They absolutely DO happen. I've done it myself to suppliers and had it done to me by customers. Usually it starts when either the supplier is hiding something OR not responding to the customers wishes.

I have found, at the end of the day, when the relationship turns HOSTILE it is because of the supplier trying to shortcut the rules and not being above board. It can be BAD if a supplier quality engineer on the customer side isn't the brightest bulb, let's say. But that doesn't generally lead to hostility. Suppliers that ARE above board get a lot of help from their customers, because the customers know they are needed and part of the team. (Except for purchasing. Purchasing is a pack of rabid hyenas everywhere.)
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
G Should the Quality Department originate a Request for Deviation to the Customer? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 3
A Auditees disagree with CA Request; What should Lead Auditor do? Internal Auditing 6
T TS16949 Certification withdrawn - What should be included in a formal appeal request? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
P Nonconformance Request should go to whom? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
D Supplier Evaluation Procedure - What documentation should we request from suppliers? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 4
H When should the first PSUR be issued? EU Medical Device Regulations 5
I If i do not want to be an initial importer should i register with FDA? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 0
O Should a Covid vaccine and testing policy be included as part of ISO9001 or AS9100 risk management? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
B UKRP to what level should you audit Class I Technical Documentation? UK Medical Device Regulations 0
C When should you quit programming? Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 3
C Should resolution be included in uncertainty budget for digital caliper or micrometer calibration? Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 5
Ed Panek External Standards List - Should this document include previously revised standards? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
T How should I approach REACH, CM, etc. as a job shop? RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 18
A Should we assign the PRRC before the date of application of MDR (26 May 2021)? EU Medical Device Regulations 0
J UDI-DI how should we interpret Device version or model to determine if a new UDI-DI is needed? EU Medical Device Regulations 0
Sidney Vianna Interesting Discussion Should ISO 9004 be changed from a guidance document to a requirements standard? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
A Should I take an online course for a career in Occupational Health and Safety? Career and Occupation Discussions 2
J Should a Class 1 medical device with an option to measure body weight be considered Class 1m? EU Medical Device Regulations 0
K Should APQP/PPAP has its own section in a QM? Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 1
S What should i choose for "testing procedure" characteristics? (N95) General Information Resources 0
P Should eIFU link per ISO 15223-1:2016 be added to labels out of scope of Reg 207/2012? EU Medical Device Regulations 1
S Which Sampling Plan(s) Should I Use? Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 13
A Document release vs its related training. Which should come first? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 18
S Which department should prepare the control plan? could you show me a standard regarding to this matter. FMEA and Control Plans 17
J Help settle a disagreement: Should external providers of preventive maintenance be on your ASL? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
N Master Samples - What should we be keeping? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
G Supplier delivered recent PPAP, should he deliver yearly layout inspection? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
John Broomfield Vote - Should ISO9004 Become a Requirements Standard? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
A Capability Study - in the beginning of your career what should you have known about the tool Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 11
J Should Loading and Unloading be Included in Cycle Times? Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 14
E Manufacturers should develop a testing device for covid19 Service Industry Specific Topics 0
T 510(k) submission - Which name should I use in the submission? Other US Medical Device Regulations 3
N ISO 19011:2018 - 5.4.2 "...audit program should engage in appropriate continual development..." Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
G Should I perform Gage R&R only at the beginning of a new project? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6
DuncanGibbons Should the requirements FAA/EASA Part 21 be addressed within the QMS and AS9100D quality manual? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
M Should 510(k) Predicates be Actively Listed Devices? Other US Medical Device Regulations 12
B Why the Greek god Hephaestus should have done a design FMEA (DFMEA) on his giant robot APQP and PPAP 1
J On PFMEA for danger labels - Label always should be assigned severity 10 ? FMEA and Control Plans 3
H Who should be listed as the manufacturer/distributor on the box? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 15
M MDR, RED and LVD - Should our device comply with them? EU Medical Device Regulations 3
BeaBea How Many Processes should be created for each Department? Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 5
M Should volume of sales be factored into risk probability assessments? ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 33
MrTetris Should potential bugs be considered in software risk analysis? ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 5
S Should safety checks be included in the Control Plan? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
M Which incubation condition should be selected to recover both bacteria and fungus effectively Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 3
D Is there a specific location for PPE such as safety glass holders and glove dispensers should be mounted Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 10
Robert Stanley Which Registrar Should I Choose for ISO 9001:2015 registration? Registrars and Notified Bodies 10
M Who should receive the bills from suppliers and vendors, account payable or procurement? Consultants and Consulting 4
V IATF 16949 8.4.1 Control of externally provided processes, products and services - Should the CB be on our Approved Supplier List? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
A We are ISO 13485:2016 should we be audited to ISO 14971 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 16

Similar threads

Top Bottom