Should I wait to get certified to ISO 9001:2015 ?

[luis.armendariz]

Good day all,

A small metal mechanics organization (45 employees, 1 shift, 1 customer) wants to be ISO9001 certified, they have not a QMS fully implemented yet, I would say they have a 10-20% maximum. I think the QMS would be fully implemented in 6 months since it is a small organization.

1) I was told the 2015 rev will be ready next September, is this correct?
2) When the CB will be able to start certifying organizations in 2015 rev.?
3) How long a certification process takes? Will it change for 2015 rev.?
4) When the 3rd party auditor will be certified to audit in 2015 rev.?
5) At this point, what would be the best choice for this organization, to implement a QMS and certify in 2008 rev. or 2015 rev.?

Thanks

 

[AndyN]

Re: ISO Certification (2008 or 2015)

Good day all,

A small metal mechanics organization (45 employees, 1 shift, 1 customer) wants to be ISO9001 certified, they have not a QMS fully implemented yet, I would say they have a 10-20% maximum. I think the QMS would be fully implemented in 6 months since it is a small organization.

1) I was told the 2015 rev will be ready next September, is this correct?
2) When the CB will be able to start certifying organizations in 2015 rev.?
3) How long a certification process takes? Will it change for 2015 rev.?
4) When the 3rd party auditor will be certified to audit in 2015 rev.?
5) At this point, what would be the best choice for this organization, to implement a QMS and certify in 2008 rev. or 2015 rev.?

Thanks

1) It might be, we don't know. It's the plan, but it can change.
2) Some might tell you immediately, but it will take a few months after, in practice.
3) No-one knows about auditor "certification" - if it's needed etc.
4) We don't know - the IAF hasn't told anyone
5) Go for 2008 so the benefits are felt NOW, and then have 3 years in which to make the change. (by which time all these questions will be resolved)

 

[PaulJSmith]

2008 is the standard right now. 2015 is not yet available. Work towards 2008. If you're not yet ready by the time 2015 is released, I doubt it will be a substantial change to go with the updated version. Most of the "basics" will remain the same. And as Andy noted, you'll have 3 years to make any necessary changes.

 

[luis.armendariz]

Great, Rev 2008 is definitely the best option.

Thanks for you responses.

One more question:

There are three small plants located in a different city than the one pursuing the certification (let?s call it ACME), these other 3 organizations "are not" ACME; but, produce products with ACME logo/brand and ship directly to customers, and are controlled by ACME?s site/management. Additionally, these three small organizations produce other different products for other different customers/purposes.
ACME wants to include the processes at these 3 organizations that produce their products in their QMS and the certification scope.
Is this possible?
Would they be considered as remote locations?
Or they have to be considered as suppliers even when they ship to customers and should be controlled by Purchasing in ACME?

It?s weird for me, never heard about something like this before!

 

[somashekar]

Great, Rev 2008 is definitely the best option.

Thanks for you responses.

One more question:

There are three small plants located in a different city than the one pursuing the certification (let?s call it ACME), these other 3 organizations "are not" ACME; but, produce products with ACME logo/brand and ship directly to customers, and are controlled by ACME?s site/management. Additionally, these three small organizations produce other different products for other different customers/purposes.
ACME wants to include the processes at these 3 organizations that produce their products in their QMS and the certification scope.
Is this possible?
Would they be considered as remote locations?
Or they have to be considered as suppliers even when they ship to customers and should be controlled by Purchasing in ACME?

It?s weird for me, never heard about something like this before!

If you are faced with a business need to be ISO9001 certified, go for the ISO9001:2008.
If there is no business need, then follow the progress and grasp the ISO9001:2015, and plan your certification to this new upcoming standard.
You can have 3 or more suppliers where you outsource your products which are produced, and distributed as ACME products. Include all of them well and comprehensively in your outsourced process controls. As they are not your organization, and your QMS is not deployed across these sites as they also make products for others., they are not your remote locations. They will not be listed in your ISO certification.

Or they have to be considered as suppliers even when they ship to customers and should be controlled by Purchasing in ACME?

This option is most suitable to your QMS

 

[luis.armendariz]

Being outsourced processes do not need to be audited?
Just evidence of conformance is required, correct?

So once ACME gets its ISO certification, the 3 outsourced processes/companies may apply a note on the packages as "ACME and ISO9001 certified company"? is this valid even when those outsourced processes/organizations are not certified or part of a certified organization?

Thanks for your beg help!

 

[somashekar]

Being outsourced processes do not need to be audited?
Just evidence of conformance is required, correct?

So once ACME gets its ISO certification, the 3 outsourced processes/companies may apply a note on the packages as "ACME and ISO9001 certified company"? is this valid even when those outsourced processes/organizations are not certified or part of a certified organization?

Thanks for your beg help!

There are certain ways in which the ISO9001 details with the CB logo can be used. Your CB will detail you the same. Marking on product packages is not a way of using the ISO9001 information.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Great, Rev 2008 is definitely the best option.

Thanks for you responses.

One more question:

There are three small plants located in a different city than the one pursuing the certification (let?s call it ACME), these other 3 organizations "are not" ACME; but, produce products with ACME logo/brand and ship directly to customers, and are controlled by ACME?s site/management.

It depends what you mean by 'controlled by ACME?s site/management'. IMHO it will be difficult for ACME to demonstrate that it has an equivalent level of control of these 3 companies equivalent to their own processes. If the whole of a production system is outsourced that is very different from the 9001 intent on allowing one or more specialist processes to be outsourced.

Additionally, these three small organizations produce other different products for other different customers/purposes.
ACME wants to include the processes at these 3 organizations that produce their products in their QMS and the certification scope.
Is this possible?
Would they be considered as remote locations?
Or they have to be considered as suppliers even when they ship to customers and should be controlled by Purchasing in ACME?

It?s weird for me, never heard about something like this before!

There is no justification for inclusion of the 3 other company locations on any ISO certificate.

Being outsourced processes do not need to be audited?
Just evidence of conformance is required, correct?

So once ACME gets its ISO certification, the 3 outsourced processes/companies may apply a note on the packages as "ACME and ISO9001 certified company"? is this valid even when those outsourced processes/organizations are not certified or part of a certified organization?

Thanks for your beg help!

Again I can't see how a complete outsource could be included on an ISO certification. Your CB will have to be very careful in describing the organization's scope so as to not confuse the customer and they will similarly have to monitor the use of packaging marks so as to not mislead.

It may be you can provide some more information but as it stands I can't see it working.

 

[luis.armendariz]

Great Responses!

Thanks all, I appreciate it!

 

[kzachawk]

Re: ISO Certification (2008 or 2015)

A small shop of 45 folks, I would ask the customer if they expect the organization to become registered or compliant and hope they say compliant. If they state registered, I would ask them who is going to absorb the costs related to registration? Many large corporations will include their smaller suppliers under the umbrella of their registrar, there by vastly reducing the cost of registration

If you must be ISO registered or compliant, I would suggest you start with 9001:2008 which will give you until at least 2018 to get ready for the 2015 revision. There are many other equally effective systems such as the Toyota Production System (TPS) which are actually better for a small job shop to implement than clunky ISO 9001 (especially this recent revision).

TPS was far more effective at addressing our operational issues than ISO, and with this latest revision which focuses on more documented definition of Strategic planning, interested parties, processes, risks, controls, and changes, it appears as that is going to continue for the foreseeable future. The other consideration is to use Demings system of Plan Do Study Act from the Top down. ISO for small job shops is extremely clunky and causes activities which are not value added.