Should Preventative Action follow a Corrective Action

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#11
If it's identified as a Preventive Action within the QMS it's not optional what you do with it. If an identified Preventive Action is not addressed as such and according to 8.5.3, then the lack of action becomes a nonconformity itself.


Look at the definition of Preventive Action above....the definition is non-negotiable and when one is recorded within a 9001 based QMS it's not a suggestion
When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. There's an idea or a suggestion, and then there's action if action is appropriate. It is optional what you do with the idea or suggestion--you can implement the PA or not.
 
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C

Christopher S

#12
So judging from all your comments and other threads on this subject I have a few more questions as follows:

1. Can I issue a PA without having the need to issue a CA?
2. Do I need to know the Root cause of the problem before issuing the PA?
3. Do I need to know the Root cause before issuing a CA?
4. Can the Root cause potentially be different for a CA and a PA or are we really looking at resolving the same problem but with different time elements (i.e. past and future)?

Regards

Christopher
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#13
So judging from all your comments and other threads on this subject I have a few more questions as follows:

1. Can I issue a PA without having the need to issue a CA?
2. Do I need to know the Root cause of the problem before issuing the PA?
3. Do I need to know the Root cause before issuing a CA?
4. Can the Root cause potentially be different for a CA and a PA or are we really looking at resolving the same problem but with different time elements (i.e. past and future)?

Regards

Christopher
For clarification:
  • Do you interpret CA as a Corrective Action Request?
  • Do you interpret PA as a Preventive Action Request?
Stijloor.
 
C

Christopher S

#14
Yes you are right! A CA is a Corrective Action Request (should be CAR) and a PA is a Preventative Action Request (should be PAR)

Regards

Christopher
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
So judging from all your comments and other threads on this subject I have a few more questions as follows:

1. Can I issue a PA without having the need to issue a CA?
2. Do I need to know the Root cause of the problem before issuing the PA?
3. Do I need to know the Root cause before issuing a CA?
4. Can the Root cause potentially be different for a CA and a PA or are we really looking at resolving the same problem but with different time elements (i.e. past and future)?

Regards

Christopher
If you broaden your outlook and view, then one could see the implementing and maintaining a QMS in itself is a big preventive action. Do not be much worried about issuing a PA. If your CA activity has the depth and is applied across the board, this in itself is a good action.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#16
So judging from all your comments and other threads on this subject I have a few more questions as follows:

1. Can I issue a PA without having the need to issue a CA?
2. Do I need to know the Root cause of the problem before issuing the PA?
3. Do I need to know the Root cause before issuing a CA?
4. Can the Root cause potentially be different for a CA and a PA or are we really looking at resolving the same problem but with different time elements (i.e. past and future)?

Regards

Christopher
1. Yes...it's a stand-alone requirement

2. Nope...

3. Nope...

4. There's a big difference between the need for CA and PA...A CA is performed after something breaks and a PA is done when you realize that unless action is taken something will or can break. The difference is one is reactive and the other is proactive (past vs future)

Oh...and at least I'm digging instead of just talking there Jim.;)
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#17
So judging from all your comments and other threads on this subject I have a few more questions as follows:

1. Can I issue a PA without having the need to issue a CA?
2. Do I need to know the Root cause of the problem before issuing the PA?
3. Do I need to know the Root cause before issuing a CA?
4. Can the Root cause potentially be different for a CA and a PA or are we really looking at resolving the same problem but with different time elements (i.e. past and future)?

Regards

Christopher
I think you suffer from a very common misconception.

If you think that Preventive action (as required by element 8.5.3) is what you do to keep something you have completed a Corrective Action on to prevent it from happening again, you are wrong.

That would be part of the Corrective Action.

Corrective Actions are reactive in nature. They are what you do to overcome something that has happened.

Preventive Actions are proactive in nature. Thay are what you do to keep a POTENTIAL problem from happening.

Think in terms of a train wreck. Once the wreck has happened, everything you do from that point on about that train wreck are part of a Corrective Action because it has already happened.

If you can see a train wreck is imminent, what you do to keep it from happening is part of a Preventive Action.

When you ask if you need to have a Corrective Action before you attempt to do a Preventive Action shows that you do not understand. They are, as Randy pointed out, seperate issues.

Take a look at the standard, and underline the word "recurrance" in 8.5.2 and underline the word "occurance" in 8.5.3. That may help to see the difference.
 
C

Christopher S

#18
Thank you to Big Jim, Randy and Somashekar (and the rest) for the very complete explanation. It has been extremely helpful in understanding the process.

Best regards

Christopher
 
Q

QCAce

#19
Christopher...
One more little tid-bit as you start to implement preventive actions...
CARs instances usually have good data sources and are easy to identify, but PAR opportunities are harder to come by.

A good source for preventitive actions are internal audit observations. The audit nonconformances always generate CARs, and the observations many times lead to good PAR opportunities.
 
C

Christopher S

#20
Thanks to Andy Nutt again for his comment. This then makes me wonder whether a Corrective Action should always follow a Non-Conformance or can a Non-Conformance be an end in itself?
 
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