Should "process maps" be challenged? Does TS 16949 require process maps or not?

[Jonell]

Hello all,

It seems that I have heard over and over that TS does NOT require you to map your processes. However, I just submitted the quality manual to our registrar. Below is the comment that came back on process maps:

"TS 16949-2002, clause 4.2.2.c – the diagram submitted DOES NOT address the information requirements for the TS 16949-2002 automotive approach.

Please submit the (company name) Process Maps referenced on the diagram.

Make sure that they are part of the quality manual."

Ok, if TS doesn't REQUIRE you to map your processes, then how come some registrars are demanding it, right down to what format you are supposed to use? (turtle diagram is required in this instance)

Jonell

 

[Sam]

The ONLY requirement is to define each process and then describe the interaction between them. Nothing more, nothing less.
Although process mapping/process diagrams is/are not required, it may be the easiest and the best pictorial method. Next would be a tabular method, which by the way, is the method defined by AIAG for the automotive approach. And it also follows the control plan approach. You could also prepare a written description; however this might become a little confusing.

"TS 16949-2002, clause 4.2.2.c – the diagram submitted DOES NOT address the information requirements for the TS 16949-2002 automotive approach."

Did your auditor explain what these "information Requirements" are? It would be interesting to hear what he would say.

 

[WALLACE]

Jonell,
If you submit flowcharts as being an integral part of your BMS, expect them to be assessed by a third party auditor.
Regardless of the inclusion, requirement or not by ISO/TS. If you even include a cartoon in your QM, it shall be assessed by a third party auditor for conformity to the standard and your good old fashioned planned arrangements.
Wallace.

 

[Jonell]

Did your auditor explain what these "information Requirements" are? It would be interesting to hear what he would say.

Sam,

I'm assuming that he considers the information requirements to be the process maps. He goes on to give me a list of what is required to be included in the process maps.

Jonell

 

[Sam]

Sam,

I'm assuming that he considers the information requirements to be the process maps. He goes on to give me a list of what is required to be included in the process maps.

Jonell

Could you share with us what other requirements your auditor is says should be included.
The only requirement of para 4.2.2.c is to describe the "interaction" of the processes. Have you done that? I don't believe your auditor can tell you how your processes sould interact.

Wallace is correct. If you have submited process maps they will be reviewed. However this does not mean there is to be additional requirements.

As I read further in your first post, I see the mention of the turtle diagram. This is an aid to help in determining if your process meets the requirements for an automotive process, i.e, inputs, activities, outputs. It is not a requirement to include these with the quality manual.
Refer to the Errata sheet to the Quality System Assessment Checklist for additional information. This can be found on the AIAG website.

 

[Sean Kelley]

We just passed our TS2 Registration audit and were the first to do so with zero nonconformances. I can tell you our auditor also looks at effectiveness and efficiency of your processes. So just having the process maps will not solve the issue of what your results are. If you have good results then they will be less critical of how you are doing something.

 

[Jonell]

As I read further in your first post, I see the mention of the turtle diagram. This is an aid to help in determining if your process meets the requirements for an automotive process, i.e, inputs, activities, outputs. It is not a requirement to include these with the quality manual.
Refer to the Errata sheet to the Quality System Assessment Checklist for additional information. This can be found on the AIAG website.

Sam,

I'd be happy to. According to the auditor, the process maps are to be included as part of the quality manual. Below is what he sent:

"Please submit the (company name) Process Maps referenced on the diagram.

Make sure that they are part of the quality manual.

Make sure that each process map addresses and documents the following:
For each documented process, ask and answer the following criteria:
1) What is the internal/external customer-required output?
2) What activity(s) are performed to produce the output?
3) What equipment, material, environmental needs, etc. are needed to do this?
4) What personnel(which job functions), skills, experience, special knowledge are needed to do this?
5) What procedures, specifications, forms etc., are used to produce output?
6) How is the process measured for effectiveness in producing output that meets or exceeds the customer’s need? Each COP requires a measurement indicator, as an absolute minimum.
7) What other processes provide inputs, or use the output produced from this process? (i.e., linked processes)
8) What other processes need to be in place and functioning adequately to allow this process to function correctly to produce the required output(s)? (i.e., supporting processes)"

I have the process maps done, and will submit them to him as part of the quality manual, so that he is satisfied. They are done in the turtle diagram format, because that is the way he wants, that is the template that he gave me to use when he was here for the pre-assessment.

Jonell

 

[Valeri]

IMO you need to find a new registrar or maybe it's just the auditor. Sounds like this one expects you to perform the audit for him and is using the old "QS-9000" tactics/methods to audit. Personally, I would have serious issues with this auditor.

Attached is the quality manual process map we used to certify 9 manufacturing sites to the TS standard (some references have been deleted to protect the innocent ). All plants received certification without one nonconformance sited.

 

[db]

Make sure that each process map addresses and documents the following:
For each documented process, ask and answer the following criteria:
1) What is the internal/external customer-required output?
2) What activity(s) are performed to produce the output?
3) What equipment, material, environmental needs, etc. are needed to do this?
4) What personnel(which job functions), skills, experience, special knowledge are needed to do this?
5) What procedures, specifications, forms etc., are used to produce output?
6) How is the process measured for effectiveness in producing output that meets or exceeds the customer’s need? Each COP requires a measurement indicator, as an absolute minimum.
7) What other processes provide inputs, or use the output produced from this process? (i.e., linked processes)
8) What other processes need to be in place and functioning adequately to allow this process to function correctly to produce the required output(s)? (i.e., supporting processes)"[/I]

I think I would ask the auditor where the specific "shall" is for each of the above. Although each of the items are probably good, I think it is going far above what is required in TS. It sounds like the auditor or registrar has their own definition of what "describe the interaction" means.

 

[Sam]

Jonell,
The points that you list are good. They define and help develop the process. But they have NOTHING to do with describing interaction as required by 4.2.2.c.
Since you have already completed the work that your auditor has requested any other suggestions would be moot at this time.
However n the interest of quality improvement I would suggest that you enroll in the two courses that AIAG offers; implementaion of TS and auditing TS. You then can improve your QMS to suit your needs and not the needs of an auditor.