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Should Quality folks be just policemen & policewomen?

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#31
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

Do you not understand the distinction between verification (i.e., confirming a hypothesis that states that the system is functioning properly) and deliberate fault-finding (attempting to confirm a belief that the system is not functioning properly)?
No, Jim. I don't. :rolleyes:

Where are you getting the idea that I see them as one in the same?

is it the word "police"?

I guess I don't have then same negative feelings about that word. To me the police have always been the good guys.
 

Jim Wynne

Super Moderator
#32
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

No, Jim. I don't. :rolleyes:

Where are you getting the idea that I see them as one in the same?

is it the word "police"?

I guess I don't have then same negative feelings about that word. To me the police have always been the good guys.
I've had the good fortune to have counted several Chicago police officers with long experience among my friends in the past. One thing that I learned from them is that they assume that anyone they talk to in an official capacity will lie to them. I'm sure our own Randy will verify this phenomenon. The circumstances don't matter much--whether they're questioning someone who is suspected of committing a crime, or a witness, the assumption is that the complete truth is not being told.

I asked if you understood the distinction not out of condescension, but because it appears that you might not realize that when a person is granted police powers, it means that the person is often perceived as being an agent of punishment, or some sort of bad tidings, especially when questioning people who are guilty, or afraid of being perceived as guilty. Auditing should never be a fault-finding mission, and when it is, lies will be told, both to protect the innocent and the guilty. When the power to find fault and identify miscreants is invested in a single person or department, the result will always be suboptimal (at best). On the other hand, when the culture is directed at nonconformance as anathema (rather than people) things will change for the better.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#33
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

I've had the good fortune to have counted several Chicago police officers with long experience among my friends in the past. One thing that I learned from them is that they assume that anyone they talk to in an official capacity will lie to them. I'm sure our own Randy will verify this phenomenon. The circumstances don't matter much--whether they're questioning someone who is suspected of committing a crime, or a witness, the assumption is that the complete truth is not being told.

I asked if you understood the distinction not out of condescension, but because it appears that you might not realize that when a person is granted police powers, it means that the person is often perceived as being an agent of punishment, or some sort of bad tidings, especially when questioning people who are guilty, or afraid of being perceived as guilty. Auditing should never be a fault-finding mission, and when it is, lies will be told, both to protect the innocent and the guilty. When the power to find fault and identify miscreants is invested in a single person or department, the result will always be suboptimal (at best). On the other hand, when the culture is directed at nonconformance as anathema (rather than people) things will change for the better.
Believe me, I realize it. I've realized it a big way over the years.
But in my world there HAS to be "police" because there are woefully few cultures in the small-medium sized companies with which I've worked that self police.
Thus someone has to be a policeman and it always falls to QA/QC. People who have been blessed to work in companies with more forward thinking cultures have to realize that there are a whole lot of quality cops out there.

Am I saying that's the way I LIKE to run things? No. I'd like to see everyone empowered to, AND NOT FRIGHTENED OF, dealing with their own nonconformances and submitting PA's.
But everywhere I've worked I have had to be pragmatic and work with with the resources I was provided.
 
Q

qualitytrec

#36
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

You know Jim and Discordian you both have points. Maybe I am off on this but it seems to me that while bulding the controlled culture of quality/improvement/change with the last word of the three being the one most people fear from a QMS that we have to "police" as we educate and build the culture. Since people fear change we sometimes have to manage a little more closely because people rebel against things that they fear. We need to calm their fears. Now obviously we could be bad cop and billy club all offenders. Or we could try to win trust (if it is deserved).
As quality professionals we fill many roles. I have often had to be judge in a quality disagreement, sometimes I am the attorney, sometimes I am the law breaker (it is easy to break the rules if you are the sherrif). Because I can also operate outside the system sometimes though is why others have to have the right to bring up quality concerns and nonconfromity to management.
Right now I am trying to police the situation at the same time as a teach. I focus on the biggest issues right now and try to lock them down. When these are done then I will move to the next set of biggest issues. Management/police call it what you want we are the ones who have to report on the performance of the QMS. We are in one sense here "to serve and protect" aren't we.
 
R

ralphsulser

#37
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

A different kind of police.When I was real young, and starting through USAF basic training, one day our sergeant said we were going out to “police” the area. I thought “hey, that sounds good”. But I soon found out that meant an other kind of "police" by going around the area picking up any and all trash left by other people.

Maybe that’s what we are doing in quality systems improvement, “policing” the systems to clean up the bad practices and do things that help our companies do the right things, the right way.
 
J

jeffrey_Chang

#38
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

Good morning,:D
Seems like we are having a good time here.
Based on personal experiences, most of this "unpleasant" notion about quality is that we have to be partly blamed and partly due to the culture of the company.
Here's a typical scenerio, after some "policing" work, the auditor found some non-compliances and report it to management. Management threw it back
at the department and fingers started pointing at the department.
After a while,people start to get perturbed and more protective. That's where all the "unpleasantness" begins. :argue: This is typically what I've seen many of a times.:yes:
Rather than just being a police, why can't we play forensic (also part of the police force). Playing a more proactive role here and providing clarification and insight into the issue will often remove away the "unpleasantness".
Personally, I feel that it is how we want to position ourselves and what drives for the satisifaction in the job. It is not what other perceives of a quality role.
thks.
jeffrey.
 
P

potdar

#39
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

Good morning,:D
Seems like we are having a good time here.
Based on personal experiences, most of this "unpleasant" notion about quality is that we have to be partly blamed and partly due to the culture of the company.
Here's a typical scenerio, after some "policing" work, the auditor found some non-compliances and report it to management. Management threw it back
at the department and fingers started pointing at the department.
After a while,people start to get perturbed and more protective. That's where all the "unpleasantness" begins. :argue: This is typically what I've seen many of a times.:yes:
Rather than just being a police, why can't we play forensic (also part of the police force). Playing a more proactive role here and providing clarification and insight into the issue will often remove away the "unpleasantness".
Personally, I feel that it is how we want to position ourselves and what drives for the satisifaction in the job. It is not what other perceives of a quality role.
thks.
jeffrey.
Jeffrey,

All the civilisations till date, including ours, cannot do without police. And as you say, the thieves will always have unpleasant feelings about them. It is unfortunate that in most place today, it is the misfortune of QA/QC to play police and be considered the bad guys ( not by all!)

But then, there have been many examples where the society has adopted self discipline and reduced the policing load. The police have actively helped in the process.

Just ask the cove members who have successfully moved from a pure QA/QC background to higher general management responsibilities. They could do it because the 'self-policing' aspect, as discussed in detail so far could increase drastically. And they contributed handsomely to it.

Else, the honors are reserved for the production, marketing or commercial chaps. Not for somebody from QA/QC or technical or .. This is a sweeping statement, but unfortunately, it stands true with a few exceptions.

Still, self or enforced (done by QA/QC or someone else), policing will not go away:D
 
J

jeffrey_Chang

#40
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

Hi Potdar,
True enough, I'm not denying the fact that police will be here to stay.
In the police force, there are different departments.
Why be a traffic police when you can choose to be a forensic.
There's nothing wrong with being a traffic police where they will keep
the traffic under control and safe. But mind me, I've known of cases
where motorist will abide by the rules when there's a traffic
police there "looking" at them but after that, they just revert back to their old self again.
Similarly, if we play the role of the traffic police, in reality, people will
be protective and caution of what they said and do. However, once that element of policing is removed, they are back to their old self. Nonetheless, playing police is equally important if we choose to play forensic where we are there not only to issue summons but also to provide more useful insight to the problem at large in order to help in resolving the issue.
thks.
jeffrey :tg:
 
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