Should Quality folks be just policemen & policewomen?

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#31
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

Do you not understand the distinction between verification (i.e., confirming a hypothesis that states that the system is functioning properly) and deliberate fault-finding (attempting to confirm a belief that the system is not functioning properly)?
No, Jim. I don't. :rolleyes:

Where are you getting the idea that I see them as one in the same?

is it the word "police"?

I guess I don't have then same negative feelings about that word. To me the police have always been the good guys.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#32
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

No, Jim. I don't. :rolleyes:

Where are you getting the idea that I see them as one in the same?

is it the word "police"?

I guess I don't have then same negative feelings about that word. To me the police have always been the good guys.
I've had the good fortune to have counted several Chicago police officers with long experience among my friends in the past. One thing that I learned from them is that they assume that anyone they talk to in an official capacity will lie to them. I'm sure our own Randy will verify this phenomenon. The circumstances don't matter much--whether they're questioning someone who is suspected of committing a crime, or a witness, the assumption is that the complete truth is not being told.

I asked if you understood the distinction not out of condescension, but because it appears that you might not realize that when a person is granted police powers, it means that the person is often perceived as being an agent of punishment, or some sort of bad tidings, especially when questioning people who are guilty, or afraid of being perceived as guilty. Auditing should never be a fault-finding mission, and when it is, lies will be told, both to protect the innocent and the guilty. When the power to find fault and identify miscreants is invested in a single person or department, the result will always be suboptimal (at best). On the other hand, when the culture is directed at nonconformance as anathema (rather than people) things will change for the better.
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#33
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

I've had the good fortune to have counted several Chicago police officers with long experience among my friends in the past. One thing that I learned from them is that they assume that anyone they talk to in an official capacity will lie to them. I'm sure our own Randy will verify this phenomenon. The circumstances don't matter much--whether they're questioning someone who is suspected of committing a crime, or a witness, the assumption is that the complete truth is not being told.

I asked if you understood the distinction not out of condescension, but because it appears that you might not realize that when a person is granted police powers, it means that the person is often perceived as being an agent of punishment, or some sort of bad tidings, especially when questioning people who are guilty, or afraid of being perceived as guilty. Auditing should never be a fault-finding mission, and when it is, lies will be told, both to protect the innocent and the guilty. When the power to find fault and identify miscreants is invested in a single person or department, the result will always be suboptimal (at best). On the other hand, when the culture is directed at nonconformance as anathema (rather than people) things will change for the better.
Believe me, I realize it. I've realized it a big way over the years.
But in my world there HAS to be "police" because there are woefully few cultures in the small-medium sized companies with which I've worked that self police.
Thus someone has to be a policeman and it always falls to QA/QC. People who have been blessed to work in companies with more forward thinking cultures have to realize that there are a whole lot of quality cops out there.

Am I saying that's the way I LIKE to run things? No. I'd like to see everyone empowered to, AND NOT FRIGHTENED OF, dealing with their own nonconformances and submitting PA's.
But everywhere I've worked I have had to be pragmatic and work with with the resources I was provided.
 
Q

qualitytrec

#36
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

You know Jim and Discordian you both have points. Maybe I am off on this but it seems to me that while bulding the controlled culture of quality/improvement/change with the last word of the three being the one most people fear from a QMS that we have to "police" as we educate and build the culture. Since people fear change we sometimes have to manage a little more closely because people rebel against things that they fear. We need to calm their fears. Now obviously we could be bad cop and billy club all offenders. Or we could try to win trust (if it is deserved).
As quality professionals we fill many roles. I have often had to be judge in a quality disagreement, sometimes I am the attorney, sometimes I am the law breaker (it is easy to break the rules if you are the sherrif). Because I can also operate outside the system sometimes though is why others have to have the right to bring up quality concerns and nonconfromity to management.
Right now I am trying to police the situation at the same time as a teach. I focus on the biggest issues right now and try to lock them down. When these are done then I will move to the next set of biggest issues. Management/police call it what you want we are the ones who have to report on the performance of the QMS. We are in one sense here "to serve and protect" aren't we.
 
R

ralphsulser

#37
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

A different kind of police.When I was real young, and starting through USAF basic training, one day our sergeant said we were going out to “police” the area. I thought “hey, that sounds good”. But I soon found out that meant an other kind of "police" by going around the area picking up any and all trash left by other people.

Maybe that’s what we are doing in quality systems improvement, “policing” the systems to clean up the bad practices and do things that help our companies do the right things, the right way.
 
J

jeffrey_Chang

#38
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

Good morning,:D
Seems like we are having a good time here.
Based on personal experiences, most of this "unpleasant" notion about quality is that we have to be partly blamed and partly due to the culture of the company.
Here's a typical scenerio, after some "policing" work, the auditor found some non-compliances and report it to management. Management threw it back
at the department and fingers started pointing at the department.
After a while,people start to get perturbed and more protective. That's where all the "unpleasantness" begins. :argue: This is typically what I've seen many of a times.:yes:
Rather than just being a police, why can't we play forensic (also part of the police force). Playing a more proactive role here and providing clarification and insight into the issue will often remove away the "unpleasantness".
Personally, I feel that it is how we want to position ourselves and what drives for the satisifaction in the job. It is not what other perceives of a quality role.
thks.
jeffrey.
 
P

potdar

#39
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

Good morning,:D
Seems like we are having a good time here.
Based on personal experiences, most of this "unpleasant" notion about quality is that we have to be partly blamed and partly due to the culture of the company.
Here's a typical scenerio, after some "policing" work, the auditor found some non-compliances and report it to management. Management threw it back
at the department and fingers started pointing at the department.
After a while,people start to get perturbed and more protective. That's where all the "unpleasantness" begins. :argue: This is typically what I've seen many of a times.:yes:
Rather than just being a police, why can't we play forensic (also part of the police force). Playing a more proactive role here and providing clarification and insight into the issue will often remove away the "unpleasantness".
Personally, I feel that it is how we want to position ourselves and what drives for the satisifaction in the job. It is not what other perceives of a quality role.
thks.
jeffrey.
Jeffrey,

All the civilisations till date, including ours, cannot do without police. And as you say, the thieves will always have unpleasant feelings about them. It is unfortunate that in most place today, it is the misfortune of QA/QC to play police and be considered the bad guys ( not by all!)

But then, there have been many examples where the society has adopted self discipline and reduced the policing load. The police have actively helped in the process.

Just ask the cove members who have successfully moved from a pure QA/QC background to higher general management responsibilities. They could do it because the 'self-policing' aspect, as discussed in detail so far could increase drastically. And they contributed handsomely to it.

Else, the honors are reserved for the production, marketing or commercial chaps. Not for somebody from QA/QC or technical or .. This is a sweeping statement, but unfortunately, it stands true with a few exceptions.

Still, self or enforced (done by QA/QC or someone else), policing will not go away:D
 
J

jeffrey_Chang

#40
Re: Should Quality folks be just policeman & policewomen?

Hi Potdar,
True enough, I'm not denying the fact that police will be here to stay.
In the police force, there are different departments.
Why be a traffic police when you can choose to be a forensic.
There's nothing wrong with being a traffic police where they will keep
the traffic under control and safe. But mind me, I've known of cases
where motorist will abide by the rules when there's a traffic
police there "looking" at them but after that, they just revert back to their old self again.
Similarly, if we play the role of the traffic police, in reality, people will
be protective and caution of what they said and do. However, once that element of policing is removed, they are back to their old self. Nonetheless, playing police is equally important if we choose to play forensic where we are there not only to issue summons but also to provide more useful insight to the problem at large in order to help in resolving the issue.
thks.
jeffrey :tg:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Sidney Vianna IATF 16949 News Presentations from the latest IATF Stakeholder Event - Expectation that IATF 16949 certification should equate with product quality. Misguided? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
F Quality Objectives - Where in the QMS Quality Objectives should be located ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
M Should Quality be an independent organization in aerospace company? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 25
A Why Quality functions (QA, QC) should act independently ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 2
B Quality Records - Should any record be signed? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
G Should the Quality Department originate a Request for Deviation to the Customer? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 3
L Supplier Approval Process – Should the Quality Department be Excluded? Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 7
O Should ISO 9001:2008 be treated as a standalone quality standard alongside AS9120A? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
S Should we get Quality Policy re-signed if the signatories leave? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
M What training or certificate should I take to work in Quality? Career and Occupation Discussions 2
L What are some SOPs that a Quality Manager should have? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
P What should a Quality Plan Include and Examples Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 3
M Should the Quality Department be independent of Operations Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 15
T What should I put on my Quality Notice Board? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
F What Training should a Quality Manager have? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 32
Q Engineering Documents Names should follow Quality Naming Coding? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
M What qualifications should a Quality Assurance Manager have? Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 3
D Use Remote Design Center - How should 7.3 be addressed in Quality Manual? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
JoCam What period of time should Quality Management Reviews cover? Management Review Meetings and related Processes 10
A How should I continue my quality career in U.S.? Career and Occupation Discussions 6
I What should be the Quality Inspection regime for a new plant? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 2
somashekar The Quality Policy - How General or Specific should a Quality Policy be stated? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
G What should be in the Quality Open Items Register Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
J How many Quality Objectives should a company have ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
H Second Quality Engineer Position Interview - What should I brush up on? Career and Occupation Discussions 6
R NQA-1 Quality Manual vs. Standard - How much should they differ Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 7
C What Should We Deliver as an experienced team of Quality Specalists and Auditors ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
C How should I establish Quality Systems in my small company Manufacturing and Related Processes 7
T Where should Validation and/or Testing Report to? Engineering? Quality? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 3
F Should I purchase a Quality System Kit? Design and Development of Products and Processes 14
A Quality Metrics that I should include if I were reporting Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 6
I Quality should own document control - WHY is finance getting involved?? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
S Quality Manual Review - Should the manual link all procedures Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 5
J Quality Policy - should a brief description of the company & its product be included? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
F Should I remove references to AS9120 / ISO 9001 from my Quality Manual and QMS? AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 7
T What should a quality engineer be doing in a company (manufacturing)? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 8
F Should a Quality Policy have Revision Control? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 65
M Should QA (Quality Assurance) be its own independent Department? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 33
S Should Quality System scope cover non-medical devices? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
G Definition Quality or Quality Assurance - The term "assurance" should not be used? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 40
J Gage & Quality Burn Out - Should I stay in quality? Career and Occupation Discussions 13
D Should the average everday Quality Control Manager need a copy of ISO 17025? ISO 17025 related Discussions 5
K Quality Objectives - How in depth should we go with our quality objectives? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 25
N Quality Engineer Job Description - What should be the function of a Quality Engineer? Career and Occupation Discussions 9
S Should Quality Policy be marketing oriented? Contracting firm for aerospace software AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 4
C How should Quality Professionals dress? Career and Occupation Discussions 78
R Resourcing Proposals - Quality Team - Should include salaries and role detai Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
M Complete revamp of quality systems required - Major pitfalls I should try to avoid Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 12
B Should manufacturing efficiency be a quality function? Yes or No? Manufacturing and Related Processes 72
S How should we track a process for Quality System Studies? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
Similar threads


















































Top Bottom