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Should The Management Representative be a Manager?

Stijloor

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#41
#41
Sidney Vianna said:
Interesting idea. But as you know, the first thing the president would do would be to delegate the responsibility, which would bring us to status quo.

A novel(?) idea: Enforce the requirement about competence to top management :mg:. Does the "work" of top management affect product quality?
Click to expand...
Sidney,

Excellent points!

Here is what I propose then:

5.5.2 Management representative

The President of the organization shall be the Management Representative and shall have responsibility and authority that shall include......

This responsibility and authority shall not be delegated to others in the organization..

Aside from this, TC176 should expand on Top Management's obligations.
For example do away with the "Top management shall ensure" language. That "ensure" word leaves the door wide open to dumping work on the Willing Workers ISO Victims...

Stijloor.
 
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Jim Wynne

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#42
#42
Stijloor said:
Sidney,

Excellent points!

Here is what I propose then:

5.5.2 Management representative

The President of the organization shall be the Management Representative and shall have responsibility and authority that shall include......

This responsibility and authority shall not be delegated to others in the organization..

Aside from this, TC176 should expand on Top Management's obligations.
For example do away with the "Top management shall ensure" language. That "ensure" word leaves the door wide open to dumping work on the Willing Workers ISO Victims...

Stijloor.
Click to expand...
Telling a CEO that she can't delegate R&A is asking for micromanagement. There's nothing wrong with delegation, and ISO 9001 "shalls" won't prevent it.

There seems to be a general feeling that the status quo in this area is undesireable. I'm not sure it is, and I think maybe the solution is to change the standard so that it reflects widespread (and CB-approved) practice. Just eliminate the "member of the organization's management" bit completely, and say "The organization's top manager shall appoint a person who, regardless of other responsibilities, shall have responsibility and authority..."
 
Stijloor

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#43
#43
Jim Wynne said:
Telling a CEO that she can't delegate R&A is asking for micromanagement. There's nothing wrong with delegation, and ISO 9001 "shalls" won't prevent it.

There seems to be a general feeling that the status quo in this area is undesireable. I'm not sure it is, and I think maybe the solution is to change the standard so that it reflects widespread (and CB-approved) practice. Just eliminate the "member of the organization's management" bit completely, and say "The organization's top manager shall appoint a person who, regardless of other responsibilities, shall have responsibility and authority..."
Click to expand...
Good points Jim.

What I have seen over and over again is that when someone is appointed to be the Management Rep., the tasks for this person become an "ISO Thing", to be looked at "when time permits", "when we feel like it", or whatever... Only when an organization totally integrates the (ISO) requirements in their quality/business system, a Management Rep is no longer necessary and the system now becomes the responsibility of all managers.

Stijloor
 
howste

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#44
#44
Stijloor said:
This ongoing discussion and obvious levels of frustration can be resolved by TC176 with the following amendment to ISO 9001:2008:

5.5.2 Management representative

The President of the organization shall be the Management Representative and shall have responsibility and authority that shall include......

Problem solved. :agree1:

Stijloor.
Click to expand...
Titles again? This would make it mandatory for the organization to have someone with "president" as their title. I know of some companies that don't use that title. I also know of many corporate facilities with their own standalone certificates that have no president at the site.
 
Stijloor

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#45
#45
howste said:
Titles again? This would make it mandatory for the organization to have someone with "president" as their title. I know of some companies that don't use that title. I also know of many corporate facilities with their own standalone certificates that have no president at the site.
Click to expand...
It was just an example.. How about the "supreme authority" shall...:notme: My intent was to offer a suggestion that would put the MR responsibility and authority in the hands of the highest authority in the organization thus eliminating the bickering about what rank the MR should have. :frust::frust:

Stijloor.
 
howste

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#46
#46
I'm just playing with you. ;)

Why is this person called Management Representative anyway? Are they representing management to someone? Are they representing something to management? Both? As long as we're rewriting the standard anyway, why don't change it to System Coach or Chief Process Accountability Officer? Since these just came off the top of my head, I'm sure there are a host of reasons not to... :notme:
 
Stijloor

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#47
#47
howste said:
I'm just playing with you. ;)

Why is this person called Management Representative anyway? Are they representing management to someone? Are they representing something to management? Both? As long as we're rewriting the standard anyway, why don't change it to System Coach or Chief Process Accountability Officer? Since these just came off the top of my head, I'm sure there are a host of reasons not to... :notme:
Click to expand...
Excellent points. Do you know what TC176 is cooking up for the next revision? :rolleyes:

Stijloor.
 
B

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#48
#48
Stijloor said:
This ongoing discussion and obvious levels of frustration can be resolved by TC176 with the following amendment to ISO 9001:2008:

5.5.2 Management representative

The President of the organization shall be the Management Representative and shall have responsibility and authority that shall include......

Problem solved. :agree1:

Stijloor.
Click to expand...
I'm puzzled where you found TC176 Interpretations for ISO 9001:2008? I can find ISO 9001:2000, but not 2008.
 
Stijloor

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#50
#50
Big Jim said:
I'm puzzled where you found TC176 Interpretations for ISO 9001:2008? I can find ISO 9001:2000, but not 2008.
Click to expand...
Hi Jim,

Sorry, I did not want to confuse you. As Jim W. said, I was just making a suggestion for an amendment.
It was meant to be somewhat "tongue-in-cheek."

Stijloor.
 
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