Signed PSW directly to End customer, Tier 1 wants their own PPAP

Mukmetalman

Registered
We work directly with our end user heavy trucking company on PPAPs since we produce a majority of our commodity with them and they fund our tooling. Payment terms hinge on completed PPAP.

For our latest part, they have directed us to a Tier 1 supplier. The Tier 1 is not accepting the end user signed PSW and has requested PPAP submission of their own, including heavy dimensional study and sample shipments in a very short timeframe. The cited IATF 16949 does not allow validation via end user PPAP approval.

Questions for the Elsmar brain trust:

1. Is this individual PPAP required in the sub tier relationship if directly PPAP approved with end user?
2. If so, is industry practice to charge Tier 1 for additional PPAP requirements beyond end user requirements?

Thanks in advance
 

Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
Everything should be agreed during quotation stage by all interested parties.
It was in your best interest to limit PPAP to one.
Tier-1 can accept OEM approved PPAP, if it was agreed and signed on paper.
Tier-1 can also request Tier-2 to submit PPAP.
Both scenarios meet IATF 16949 requirements.
Now, you can try to ask Tier-1 to accept OEM approved PPAP, but they are allowed to refuse it.
There is no "waiver", which release them from meeting IATF 16949 requirement clause 8.4.1.3 (8.3.4.4).

Quotation stage, I repeat quotation stage and once more repeat quotation stage.
There is something more to be agreed, than the price.
 

Daniel O.

Starting to get Involved
We also have the same issue,

We deliver the same part to an OEM and to a couple of directed tier-1. For each of one we have different PPAP...

"There is something more to be agreed, than the price" is it??? :sarcasm:
 
Last edited:

Matt's Quality Handle

Involved In Discussions
We also have the same issue,

We deliver the same part to an OEM and to a couple of directed tier-1. For each of one we have different PPAP...

"There is something more to be agreed, than the price" is it??? :sarcasm:

That's strange. It's been a while since I've lived in the automotive world, but directed buys usually absolve the Tier 1 of any quality responsibility including PPAP. Although I was in a situation where a Tier supplier was providing parts to both us and the OEM.

The OEM insisted that it wasn't a directed buy. Although, we had to purchase parts off of their tool, which was located at the supplier. It was a strange love triangle. OEM would direct our supplier to make the parts loose (out of spec), as it was easier on their installers. OEM would also ding us for loose assemblies. that was also fun... :sarcasm:
 

Peter_Djuk

Registered
Tier-1 can accept OEM approved PPAP, if it was agreed and signed on paper.
Tier-1 can also request Tier-2 to submit PPAP.
Both scenarios meet IATF 16949 requirements.
Now, you can try to ask Tier-1 to accept OEM approved PPAP, but they are allowed to refuse it.
There is no "waiver", which release them from meeting IATF 16949 requirement clause 8.4.1.3 (8.3.4.4).

As it was mentioned by Sebastian, Tier 1 has the obligation towards IATF 16949 CB to show evidence of fulfilling the requirement.
A similar question can be raised towards you as a Tier 2 supplier if you may happen to be IATF certified. :)
 

Daniel O.

Starting to get Involved
That's strange. It's been a while since I've lived in the automotive world, but directed buys usually absolve the Tier 1 of any quality responsibility including PPAP. Although I was in a situation where a Tier supplier was providing parts to both us and the OEM.

The OEM insisted that it wasn't a directed buy. Although, we had to purchase parts off of their tool, which was located at the supplier. It was a strange love triangle. OEM would direct our supplier to make the parts loose (out of spec), as it was easier on their installers. OEM would also ding us for loose assemblies. that was also fun... :sarcasm:

I've only been in the automotive world for 2 and al half years now, and i'm starting to understand that "strange" is a common situation... right now we are "fighting" a TIER1 because we deny to accept some of their CSR since we already comply with the OEM's, and it is a directed buy...
 
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