Simplifying QMS for small machine shop?

K

KWalls - 2008

Guest
#1
Hello Covers,

I have been working with a quality managment person from another machine shop recently for a project that we are working on in tandem. He has informed me that we have quite a large QMS covering way more than a shop our size needs. However, he didn't mention which parts would be beneficial or which parts complicate. (I don't know much about quality/ISO... I'm learning as I go. I have told him this and it's like he's using it against me-using quality jargon that he knows I wouldn't understand, etc.:mad: ) Can someone help me out and tell me what requirements a small shop would need to address and which I could get away with not addressing? I don't want to take anything out that is going to hinder our eventual registration either. I just need some direction... :bonk:
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
This is a wide subject, much of which has been addressed a number of times before so perhaps a search would turn up a few more answers.

It is difficult to answer accurately unless we know what you currently have by way of a system. If you want to know the basics - you must have a quality manual (could be 1 or 2 pages long) and you must address at least 6 key elements in documented procedures (documents, records, internal audits, N/C product and corrective/preventive action).

These only give you the peripheral controls. The main processes such as sales, purchasing, planning, manufacture, etc also need to be controlled. It is perhaps these areas where you can trim things down.

Let us know the size and shape of your system as it is and we can work from there.
 
K

KWalls - 2008

Guest
#3
This is a wide subject, much of which has been addressed a number of times before so perhaps a search would turn up a few more answers.

It is difficult to answer accurately unless we know what you currently have by way of a system. If you want to know the basics - you must have a quality manual (could be 1 or 2 pages long) and you must address at least 6 key elements in documented procedures (documents, records, internal audits, N/C product and corrective/preventive action).

These only give you the peripheral controls. The main processes such as sales, purchasing, planning, manufacture, etc also need to be controlled. It is perhaps these areas where you can trim things down.

Let us know the size and shape of your system as it is and we can work from there.
Thank you, Colpart. This is the information I was looking for. My search abilities are lacking, obviously... I had found a few things, but nothing that says "this is exactly what you HAVE to have".

The current QMS I am working with is :eek: a regurgitation of the standard with the exception of the exclusion of D&D. EVERY other item listed in the requirements is addressed in the QMS which is roughly 30-something pages long. I know that we don't have to address everything in detail-it would just create more work than what it's worth. I was hoping to just get some advice on how I could effectively "pare" it down. I appreciate your willingness to assist me.:thanks:

**Please don't think I am trying to get someone else to do the work... that's not what I mean by that at all!! I just need someone to tell me what they think I could do to "clean it up" a bit. :)
 
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Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
OK! we have a start point. My first advice would be to consider re-writing the quality manual to reflect your organisation rather than the standard. What is the point of repeating the words of a standard? - just cross reference to it.

You should have a 'description of the interaction of your processes' in the manual (clause 4.2.2 c)) - usually a flowchart or something similar.

From this, you can identify the main processes and decide how you will control each of them. Some will be by a documented procedure because that is what suits you best (notice I said suits you, not the standard). Others may be controlled by a flowchart, software program, pictures, diagrams or just by the competence of the person - you decide what works best.

If you do have documented procedures, make sure that they don't contain too much detail. Generally, procedures tell us who does what and why. Leave the how (the detail) out of the procedure. If you need it, put it in a work instruction so that you don't clog up the procedure. They are also more easily controlled that way.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#5
Number one, your counterpart is something of an a$$ if he is using your inexperience against you and throwing out terminology he is sure that you will be unfamiliar with. You can tell him I said so. :mad:

There is a thread somewhere on here that tells you exactly which procedures are required by the standard, and another that says exactly which record types are required. You can also find them by going into your copy of the standard and hi-liting the references.

I am not sure that I understand, so bear with me...Are you saying that your entire quality management system, policies, procedures and work instructions, et.al. are in your quality manual? If so, they do not NEED to be. If it works for you, fine. If not, you can refer to the procedures you have in place in the manual without actually including them.

There are some examples of peoples quality manuals on here, search for them, there are some examples in the attachment files also. Read a few, decide what you like and start making changes as you feel comfortable to do so. Remember, this is your system, not :horse: 's, so don't let him intimidate you. Remember, some people cannot help it if they are bullies, they may have been dropped on their heads as babies and sustained brain damage.:biglaugh: I've usually found that the best way to take care of people like that is to quietly and relentlessly learn all that you can, and then wait until he makes some outrageous claim and jump all over it! Usually, a bully won't pick on you if you stand up to them. It is the same in business as it was in kindergarten. Unfortunately.
 
K

KWalls - 2008

Guest
#6
You guys are already a big help.

Steel,

Thank you for understanding my frustration... sometimes I think people feel more important, too, if they can use terminology that you aren't familiar with to make you feel intimidated. Doesn't work for me. I'm like you, learn all you can now, so that you can smoke 'em later on. LOL!

SO, for the matter at hand, I can post my qms (embarrassingly enough) so that you can take a look at it. Just for a little more clarification, when I say we are a small machine shop, we now only have 6 employees - that's including the Pres & VP. So I don't want to overcomplicate business by implementing too much of the standard. In fact, WI's are pretty much communicated by the CNC controls on the machines.

Colpart,

I have a flowchart of our process for mfg and it's in the QMS. I'll post it next so that you can tell me what you think. :)

I REALLY value all of you guys here. The cove is such an invaluable tool!!!!
:applause: :thanx: :applause:

**HELP! I can't seem to attach anything right now. I will try back later!**
 
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K

KWalls - 2008

Guest
#7
I have a flowchart of our process for mfg and it's in the QMS. I'll post it next so that you can tell me what you think. :)

**HELP! I can't seem to attach anything right now. I will try back later!**
So, here I go again!! Let's hope I can get it to work this time... :cfingers:
 

Attachments

#8
So, here I go again!! Let's hope I can get it to work this time... :cfingers:
Hello Kyle,

How's that gap analysis tool working? I don't see anything really wrong with your QM; it is longer than it could be, but that's OK if you want the configuration to be what you've got. The section title pages add length and you really do not have to detail out the requirements of each section; you can just give a one-sentence summary of the nature of each clause and refer over to your procedure / WI that addresses the process(es). My last QMS Manual was 19 pages; not the shortest and not the longest I've seen. As Steel and others :applause: have said: step back and take a look, and make the QMS be your companies.

As for trimming areas of the QMS, as a small company you can scale your systems / methods down to be very simple in all areas, but there is no ISO-lite :nope: that trims whole clauses / sections of the Standard out for small companies. Example: without seeing your procedure, I think that quarterly management reviews will be overkill in a small company of 6-7, unless you are chunking out different sections each quarter; to do the whole review 4x/ year will be most-likely, non-value added twice, IMHO.

But hey, I like your documentation numbering scheme...:2cents:
 
K

KWalls - 2008

Guest
#9
How's that gap analysis tool working? It's going great! WAY better than before you sent it to me! :D


As Steel and others :applause: have said: step back and take a look, and make the QMS be your companies.

That, right there, is EXACTLY what I am attempting to do... re-work it so as not to be a regurgitation. More of "plain english" type thing so that it's workable for all who read it. :agree1:

As for trimming areas of the QMS, as a small company you can scale your systems / methods down to be very simple in all areas, but there is no ISO-lite :nope: that trims whole clauses / sections of the Standard out for small companies.

I was just trying to go by what someone else of a "reputable":rolleyes: quality management position was telling me. He wasn't very specific as to what I should trim. And I don't know exactly how to word this, but what I want exactly is to not bind this shop with too much responsibility (?) by having a complicated system. Does that make sense?

Example: without seeing your procedure, I think that quarterly management reviews will be overkill in a small company of 6-7, unless you are chunking out different sections each quarter; to do the whole review 4x/ year will be most-likely, non-value added twice, IMHO.

I appreciate your input on that... I thought it was a bit much too, but I wanted to be sure that it was being reviewed on a regular basis. I can change it to annually. (That's what I had at first)

But hey, I like your documentation numbering scheme...:2cents:

I used this numbering system when I worked for a military household goods carrier (we moved members HHG via contracted companies) and it worked well. (Thank you Mr. Keene - my old boss)

Thank you for your opinions and help. You have been a lifesaver!:thanx:
 
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#10
Yes the simple way is the best way to start...examine the areas where it may be best for your business to be more complex: for a contract high-tec machine shop perhaps the order review, supplier / purchasing, programming revision control, and product validation activites may be where your "systems" will be more detailed and complex (multiple functions and cross-reviews, etc.). But the other processes can be very simple to fit the lower-risk nature of their topics...
 
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