Small Companies and the ISO 9001 Management Representative

[al40]

I've implemented ISO 9001:2008 into three small businesses, feel free to pick my brain.

Best Regards,

al40

 

[tomvehoski]

There is no requirement that the MR have any independence. Auditors must be independent of the area being audited.

The smallest company I have set up was three people, all of whom had ownership stakes. One of them was named MR. I performed their internal audits as an external consultant.

A good auditor will understand companies of this nature and not nit pick about the standard implying that a member of management can't report to themselves or something like that.

 

[AndyN]

There is no requirement that the MR have any independence. Auditors must be independent of the area being audited.

That's not true! They just can't audit their own work! It has nothing to do with 'area' - which could be huge in some plants, for example! Independence is freedom from bias etc. People often misquote this and it becomes a big problem. We need to be accurate with the actual requirement, not our 'spin' on things - which is a bias!

 

[JaneB]

Tom, you give some good advice in your post BUT not when you say

Auditors must be independent of the area being audited.

No, no and no again. That is not correct and is based on either flawed understanding or misinterpretation.

What the 9001 Standard actually says is (my bold added):

The selection of auditors and conduct of audits shall ensure objectivity and impartiality of the audit process.
Auditors shall not audit their own work.

It makes perfect sense that auditors cannot audit their own work. But it does not say - ever! - that auditors must be "independent of the area being audited".

(Indeed, in many small companies, if that were a requirement, they could never achieve this, and thus not ISO 9001. Which would be ridiculous)

 

[Bob the QE]

Thanks for all the great input. I am approaching the element by making the owner the Rep and pulling from within and without the org. resources to assisting him to ensure all bullet points in 5.5.2 are accomplished but at the end of the day whether he is the MR or not he is the owner and he has to uphold those decisions just as in any larger company.

Thanks agagin,

 

[tomvehoski]

When the OP mentioned "independence", my brain apparently flashed back in time to 1994.

Internal quality audits shall be scheduled on the basis of the status and
importance of the activity to be audited and shall be carried out by
personnel independent of those having direct responsibility for the
activity being audited.

(ISO 9001:1994 4.17)

So I'm not so much wrong, just 16 years obsolete.

 

[Moncia]

Re: Small Companies and the ISO Rep

One of my ISO 9001 Clients is a small family business. Five people in all. The VP of Operations is also the Management Representative. All personnel have different roles and responsibilities that are well-defined. It's like a play where all actors play different roles..

Stijloor.

That's exactly what happened at our compnay, very small, so the VP of sales is our MR

 

[Moncia]

I have worked with several companies of this size, and have taken the approach of having whichever leader in the company is most hands-on with the quality system be the MR. The bigger problem is structuring the internal audit process to provide independence; the tendency will be to have the same individual do all jobs - MR, quality system developer, internal auditor... as well as being the lead engineer, or plant manager, or whatever. This pretty well screws up the "independence" of the internal audit process!

One solution for that is to outsource the internal audit to a consultant (like yours truly!), or alternatively to negotiate a "mutual aid" deal with another company to trade internal audit help.

Best...........Brad

what will you suggest in the same situation, when management absolutelly wont allow outsourced auditors and you know you are not independent of the process-ergo not compliant,
that's what we have in here

 

[Moncia]

Tom, you give some good advice in your post BUT not when you say
No, no and no again. That is not correct and is based on either flawed understanding or misinterpretation.

What the 9001 Standard actually says is (my bold added):

It makes perfect sense that auditors cannot audit their own work. But it does not say - ever! - that auditors must be "independent of the area being audited".

(Indeed, in many small companies, if that were a requirement, they could never achieve this, and thus not ISO 9001. Which would be ridiculous)

You lost me here, and that is the problem we are having in here. Could you please explain it further.

 

[AndyN]

what will you suggest in the same situation, when management absolutelly wont allow outsourced auditors and you know you are not independent of the process-ergo not compliant,
that's what we have in here

World Cup has gone to your head, Moncia! Is it the sound of the vuvzelahs?

You don't have to be 'independent' - you just can't audit your work! So, unless you do all jobs, you can audit anything you didn't 'touch'!