Small Company - Internal audit process - Who does the audit?

[Randy]

Your argument was auditors do not need to be qualified. (scroll up). The standard states: The organization shall maintain a list of qualified internal auditors.

However, you choose to define that is your business. For my business, it requires extensive training to be deemed qualified and competent.

We can't all be perfect like you! So let's just end this - You are right and everyone else is wrong!!! Is that better for your ego?

You're still making a requirement that doesn't exist out of a guidance in 19011 and it's a document that isn't even required to be referenced by an organization doing 9-14-45 and nearly everything else....It's a GUIDANCE DOCUMENT, it is not auditable.

I'm not sure what your business is, but if you are using 19011 as a requirements document for your MS and you're seeking an accredited 3rd party certification, you've set yourself into the middle of a minefield laced with potential for disaster, I've seen it done and the results were less than satisfying for the effected parties. If I were to require, during a certification audit, what you're saying without a specific requirement to back me up then I'd be wrong.

 

[malasuerte]

You're still making a requirement that doesn't exist out of a guidance in 19011 and it's a document that isn't even required to be referenced by an organization doing 9-14-45 and nearly everything else....It's a GUIDANCE DOCUMENT, it is not auditable.

I'm not sure what your business is, but if you are using 19011 as a requirements document for your MS and you're seeking an accredited 3rd party certification, you've set yourself into the middle of a minefield laced with potential for disaster, I've seen it done and the results were less than satisfying for the effected parties. If I were to require, during a certification audit, what you're saying without a specific requirement to back me up then I'd be wrong.

Seriously? I am not making any requirement from 19011! That requirement is clause 7.2.3!!!

The organization shall have a documented process(es) to verify that internal auditors are competent, taking into account any customer-specific requirements. For additional guidance on auditor competencies, refer to ISO 190011. The organization shall maintain a list of qualified internal auditors.

Wow...you sure are good at twisting people's words to meet your intentions. I already stated: YOU ARE RIGHT, EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG!

Our business has done just fine - exceptional, world class results year in and year out; for a fortune 100 company!

 

[Randy]

Seriously? I am not making any requirement from 19011! That requirement is clause 7.2.3!!!

The organization shall have a documented process(es) to verify that internal auditors are competent, taking into account any customer-specific requirements. For additional guidance on auditor competencies, refer to ISO 190011. The organization shall maintain a list of qualified internal auditors.

Wow...you sure are good at twisting people's words to meet your intentions. I already stated: YOU ARE RIGHT, EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG!

Our business has done just fine - exceptional, world class results year in and year out; for a fortune 100 company!

Hey whatever, but I think you're referring to TS 16949 aren't you? I'm sorry but shall's aren't used in guidance documents ....

In part to avoid copywrite

IATF 16949

7.2.3 Internal auditor competency

The organization shall have a documented process(es) to verify that internal auditors are competent, taking into account any customer-specific requirements. For additional guidance on auditor competencies, refer to ISO 19011. The organization shall maintain a list of qualified internal auditors

 

[malasuerte]

Hey whatever, but I think you're referring to TS 16949 aren't you? I'm sorry but shall's aren't used in guidance documents ....

In part to avoid copywrite

IATF 16949

7.2.3 Internal auditor competency

The organization shall have a documented process(es) to verify that internal auditors are competent, taking into account any customer-specific requirements. For additional guidance on auditor competencies, refer to ISO 19011. The organization shall maintain a list of qualified internal auditors

It's "copyright" - and yes, that is IATF. But even ISO provides enough guidance. I'll stick to my way as it is deemed successful and world class! I'd rather be wrong like that, then listen to someone like you who seems to be on an ego trip!

The organization shall:

b) ensure that these persons are competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, or experience;
c) where applicable, take actions to acquire the necessary competence, and evaluate the effectiveness
of the actions taken;

 

[Randy]

It's "copyright" - and yes, that is IATF. But even ISO provides enough guidance. I'll stick to my way as it is deemed successful and world class! I'd rather be wrong like that, then listen to someone like you who seems to be on an ego trip!

The organization shall:

b) ensure that these persons are competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, or experience;
c) where applicable, take actions to acquire the necessary competence, and evaluate the effectiveness
of the actions taken;

I'm sorry if it appears so and thanks for the spelling correction, I'll fall back on previous TBI effects. Most people come here seeking advice and information in the hope that experienced professionals can aid them in their quest. I've only been helping here a bit over 20 years so I'm still learning the ropes.

 

[Golfman25]

It's "copyright" - and yes, that is IATF. But even ISO provides enough guidance. I'll stick to my way as it is deemed successful and world class! I'd rather be wrong like that, then listen to someone like you who seems to be on an ego trip!

The organization shall:

b) ensure that these persons are competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, or experience;
c) where applicable, take actions to acquire the necessary competence, and evaluate the effectiveness
of the actions taken;

It's no problem giving your opinion on how to create an audit system. However, you're quoting a specialized standard that only a relative few are familiar with and providing guidance that isn't required under plain old ISO 9001. It helps everyone if you're clear about what you are referring to.

 

[John Broomfield]

ISO 19011:2018
Guidelines for auditing management systems

ISO 19011:2018

Competence is the requirement of ISO 9001. Organizations are free to bring competence to their processes in any way they like. Most do it by subcontracting or by recruiting folk with the required behaviors, skills and knowledge - topping up their skills and knowledge as necessary for these folk to demonstrate their ability to complete tasks well.