Firstly I agree with Marc's point about temperature. I confess I have contributed to it in a small way by expressing my disappointment at the response to my and Colin's intervention in this thread. Sometimes temperature is need to get the reactions that produce the food we all enjoy. Perhaps we can get it back to a simmer? :truce:
I started my "adult" life 45 years ago as a college associate professor at a major state university. I had a variety of careers in the intervening period and now, in my semi-retirement, I find myself back teaching college part-time. A number of my close friends are tenured professors at colleges and universities around the world. Since this "tempest in a teapot" [if you label me as "condescending," by the way, be sure you understand the meaning of the term], I corresponded with several of them and they all agree with my reasoning on this matter. No one has been condescending to you personally, merely to the ridiculousness of trying to defend someone else's material from exposure, but know this - you do not, and did not have legal standing to request removal of material which "may" have been copyrighted by some other entity. Only the copyright holder or its legally appointed representative has that right.
When this first started I didn't know whether to respond or applaud. I'll do both. Congrats Wes on your long life and great knowledge of the education system, for your contacts and for your understanding of the law of copyright!
... however you have missed the point. I know enough about the Cove and the way it is moderated that I cannot force anyone to take material off. That is the job of the Moderators and, ultimately, Marc. I could wait for the copyright holder to defend their rights and take it up with Marc or I could try and save some embarrassment by pointing it out. I chose to do the latter. Are you seriously suggesting I should have waited for IRCA to park its tanks on the Ranch lawn?
FWIW I never said anything about condescension and don't know if your point was aimed at either or both of us but I did find your questioning whether Colin or I might know the meaning of the word condescending in itself!
Since I deal in copyright matters as a normal part of my life on a weekly basis, I can assure you that I would probably be able to demonstrate that IRCA had, in fact, merely paraphrased existing questions from some other source and would fail in a copyright suit on the law of the case.
Again copyright is not the issue. As I think has been proven there are a limited number of ways you can construct a sentence and if you are dealing with the same topic you will have the same or similar questions - especially when testing knowledge of definitions.
I believe (but don't know) that IRCA has asserted copyright on the combination of questions and the examination as a whole.
You raise an issue which has nothing to do with the legal merits of whether the questions should have been published here in the Cove - merely some strained definition of ethics as to whether it gives someone an unfair advantage on an individual organization's test to have access to questions beforehand. Are auditors so selfish they don't want others to have an opportunity to pass an exam and compete with them?
I'll ignore your perjorative use of 'strained' and deal with the case in point. IRCA uses open book examination as one of the means of assessing a candidate's competence to be an auditor. The exam covers knowledge of the management system standards requirements (Section 1 that has been discussed here) a multiple choice answer on definitions and meanings and further sections involving (from memory) short answers on the topic (quality in this case), audit planning, auditor behaviour and identification of nonconformity. All important topics for individuals looking to make their living at auditing and who you or I might face in an audit situation tomorrow.
So in answer to your question 'are auditors selfish' I will say: 'I don't know, I am a customer of their services and I would like their professional body to maintain standards so I can have faith in the individuals that come and visit me and the process I have to go through.'
Would you be happy if the medical practitioner assigned to you didn't have the necessary medical knowledge but had been 'helped' through his exams by seeing the questions beforehand? :mg:
When I was in a fraternity in college, we folks who were proficient in a course tutored our lesser informed brothers as a fraternal duty. Did it give them an advantage when test time came? Sure! Non-fraternity affiliated folks paid fees for private tutoring. Did that give them an advantage when taking a test? Sure!
Again well done you.
I have no problem with anyone using all fair means at their disposal to prepare for examination.
So, if a guy doesn't have fraternity brothers, doesn't have money to hire a private tutor or take a preparation course, YOU want to put that guy at a disadvantage by preventing him from getting information for free here in the Cove. How fair is that? Take a guy disavantaged by lack of connections, lack of money to hire help in studying, and YOU want to put your foot on his neck and keep him in ignorance so he can't possibly compete against you on a level playing field. Sounds a lot like the reasoning slave owners must have had when they imposed laws against letting slaves learn how to read and write. Enjoy the company of like-minded folks!
A bit of an emotional tirade at the end there, Wes. Drawing a parallel with the slave trade is somewhat bizarre. If we go back to the auditor approval process. Anyone can book a place on an IRCA Lead Auditor course whether the company or the individual pays for it. They have equal access and equal opportunity in the class room. The playing field is level. If an individual has got hold of an IRCA exam paper before the course it is not to level up the playing field but to tilt it in his favour. Unless he forgets the sequence to the multiple choice and the short answers then he is guaranteed to pass the examination - no matter now knowledgeable he is.
The examination process isn't perfect and we can debate this until the cows come home but, as it stands it is the best we have and we can do without supporting anyone trying to get around it. By all means answer people's questions. I try to do that. But we need to be careful of others using us to get themselves an unfair 'leg up.'
Obviously you have never taken any prep courses where they do just that.
You are right. Any prep courses I have taken have used sample papers based on past exams (where they change every year) or ones where the tutor knows the type of question that will be asked and develops their own 'model' exam. I have never gone into an exam knowing what questions are going to be asked.
I give up - What? As far as I know, nothing. Now get to *reality* - You know darned well all of the exam is out there if not in one place, parts are in one place and other parts are in another. Those are the facts of life.
I also know there are Class A drugs out there and that people use them. I just don't want to be associated with their distribution. Please forgive my blunt analogy but its the best I can do. I've never been one for the 'If we don't do it, someone else will' argument.
Every question there has been asked and answered many times over the years here and in hundreds of other places on the internet. So - You're suggesting we stop helping people by answering their questions because one or more of the questions they ask *may* be on some exam somewhere? Heck - Why not just close the forum down and put up a page that says "Ask your questions somewhere else because any question you ask may be on a test in some company's course"? Is that your preferred way to attack this (non)problem?
No. You are right that there is nothing new under the sun and we should answer any individual question that comes up. My problem is when someone posts 10 questions (say) and we either give them the answers or correct any errors and all they then have to do is remember or write down the sequence: A,C,B,D,A,A,C,B,D,C for the 10 marks. No knowledge has been gained and potentially we have (another) auditor out there who knows little about the standard they are auditing against or the principles of quality.
If you want to point fingers, point them at yourself and Colin who made darn sure *everyone* now knows the questions were verbatim IRCA exam questions.
I can't speak for Colin but I have given myself a good talking to and vowed never again to interfere in the Cove distributing exam questions and confirming answers.
