Some Questions about some ISO 9001:2008 requirements

[Marc]

This reminds me of when I took the CQE exam about 20 years ago. I did a study-prep course prior to taking the exam. When I sat for the exam *some* of the *exact* same questions were in the exam. That is in part why this is all silly. For all you *really* knew (or know) the OP got the questions from a study-prep program. While you did not initially link the questions to the IRCA, that was the end result.

Colin, I have no problem with you or Boris. I do appreciate your helping people here, and as you say I have acknowledged my appreciation. This is an anomaly.

My only point is the questions were routine questions and no one would have linked them to the IRCA LA exam had you not done so. They would have been treated like the thousands of other questions asked here - Asked and answered without attribution to any specific company or their course(s) and/or their exams.

I tried to cool the thread down and Boris wanted to keep it going. I replied because he, by his words, implied that it is a common occurrence here, which it isn't. I take offense at that because, although untrue, it casts a dark shadow on the reputation of the forum.

Had you Reported the posts with the questions no one here would have had any idea where they came from or what exam they were linked to. It would have all been a non-issue. I will readily admit that prior to removing the questions, I wanted to know where the OP got the questions. I asked in a post. But a few people immediately knee jerked and away things went. Now there's no way to know where they came from.

What will you say if I pull out one of my old exams and post what are essentially the same questions? If I don't identify them as being from a course I made, are you (or Boris) going to freak out because they are essentially the same questions as the ones the IRCA (or some other company which does LA courses or auditing courses) has? Am I (or someone else) going to be challenged? How do I even know that someone at the IRCA didn't get a copy of some of my old auditing course exams a few years back and rephrased the questions and are now using them in their course? There are a limited number of questions one can ask in a LA class. Since 1994 I have taken the LA course twice (the second time {1998} as a refresher). The second LA course was by a different company but the questions were the same (not verbatim, but very close).

If I followed your thinking on this there would be many questions we would have to delete because they are the same as or similar to an exam question some company or person has, even if there is no link to a specific course or company. It would also follow that all exam-prep courses would have to be shut down because they often have at least some of the exact same questions that are on the exam, as is the case in many ASQ certification prep-courses. It would also follow that any college or other school courses should be closed because they contain material which could be asked in some company's or other school's course test. Where does it end?

This is my last post in this thread. If any of you want to carry it onward, have fun. I've already wasted too much time on it.

 

[katchani]

Hi Marc,

Well said.I agree with you.Those who are not interested to participate in a discussion or an activity ,they can stay away from that thread.I don't think that young guys (Including myself) are masters in interpreting each and every clause of ISO 9001.So naturally they(including myself) will ask their queries.Interested parties can reply,others can stay away.


Thanks

Here's the bottom line:

The reality is many people remember questions from tests and write them out. They trade them. They file them. Some sell them. I was first introduced to this in grade school. Getting copies of old tests (and many times recent exams) was standard. In college frats had file cabinets of old tests and even write-ups on different professors, how they taught, things like whether their questions came from the text book or were ones the professor would make up (etc., etc.).

None of that mattered. When you went in to take the test you either knew the material or you didn't. Even "cheat sheets" didn't guarantee a good grade.

I also will repeat what Wes pointed out: We learn in this way whether we realize it or not.

We have to go back to some here who don't want to answer questions from students. For those who do not, then don't. Just stay out of the thread. But (and this in general as opposed to targeting this thread) - Don't discourage others from helping. I got a lot of help from people throughout my schooling years by asking questions. Answering student's questions, even if they are for an upcoming test, isn't a crime. It isn't cheating. If anyone here got through schooling without ever asking questions, I'd be surprised. Or maybe I was stupid and had to ask questions to understand the material. I often had to get help with "home work" from school (as it was known in my days and assume it still is), even in college. Students do come here and I am very much against people ignoring them, or replying sarcastically, or otherwise essentially belittling them. A 'standard' that pops up here from time to time that really sorta pi$$es me off is when someone posts something akin to "Do your own homework". I was raised in a family where asking questions was expected and encouraged. If I went to my father for help in understanding something, such as a homework question, he helped me. He didn't say "It's your home work, you do it". There may have been one, but I don't remember a teacher that wouldn't help when I had home work or class course related questions. This is the Elsmar Cove forum and there is no "Students Keep Out" sign or policy, and I prefer that the forum not become known for ignoring or insulting students. For what it's worth, we're *all* students at different points in our lives. Each of us, myself included (and you as well), learn something new every day. We're all students.

This whole thing is pretty stupid in my opinion. Had you not posted no one would have even known they are IRCA questions and none of this discussion would have come up in the first place. For all anyone knew they were questions from my old auditing course test. They could have been (and, in fact, *may* have been) from a course he took somewhere. Certainly the IRCA didn't give them to him. If you want to get down to brass tacks (so to speak), there could be an IRCA instructor selling parts of, or the entire exam. We'll for sure now never know where the OP got the questions.

As to the questions themselves, the IRCA can claim ownership of the specific verbiage, but the questions and their answers are just variations on a common theme. Even they did not write significantly unique questions. You know darn well even the people who made up the IRCA tests took ideas from different sources. It's a lead auditor course. Thousands of people have taken the same course, and there are at least 100 other companies and people who give the same course. I never gave lead auditor courses, but the questions were little different than the ones I asked on my internal auditing and auditing course exams.

And yes - It carries over to ASQ certification exams and to every other exam of every type. People will always be getting some of the questions that are on exams from somewhere.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Hi Marc,

Well said.I agree with you.Those who are not interested to participate in a discussion or an activity ,they can stay away from that thread.I don't think that young guys (Including myself) are masters in interpreting each and every clause of ISO 9001.So naturally they(including myself) will ask their queries.Interested parties can reply,others can stay away.


Thanks

Hi, katchani. Perhaps you can explain your post. I Confess to feeling a little confused as to what your point is.

 

[Marc]

katchani was replying to my post. I'm not sure what you don't understand about it. The origin of this was my post on helping people like students. Some people don't want to for one reason or the other.

In summary, there are a lot of people who come here with very basic questions, or questions on problems they are given in school (and other) courses. I have asked in the past, and restated in a post in this thread, that those who don't want to help someone for what ever reason to move on to another thread. In the past some students and others posted questions and were not treated well by a few people in their replies. I have even seen people reply "Don't ask homework questions here". That is not the way I want people to think of the Elsmar Cove ("They'll just ridicule you if you ask a question"). The Elsmar Cove is a place where anyone can ask a question without fear of being belittled or insulted (for lack of a more polite word).

That's all he was referring to - Replying to my post.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Thanks, Marc. That is certainly what I hope. Nevertheless I'll wait and see if katchani replies with any comments of his own. You have asked for our public disagreements to be halted and I respect that.

 

[Marc]

Thanks, Marc. That is certainly what I hope. Nevertheless I'll wait and see if katchani replies with any comments of his own. You have asked for our public disagreements to be halted and I respect that.

I would prefer that you not stir up a controversy that had died out. You just can't seem to let this die. Now - I'm asking you nicely.... Drop it.

 

[katchani]

Hi Mark,

I think you just misunderstood me.I was supporting you by quoting your previous comments.

Dear All,

I would like to share what is in my mind.I am a young guy working in Quality department and it doesn't mean that I know everything and I am capable to find answers for my day to day problems from my ISO or fifth standard book!!!To find solution for my day to day problems I will raise queries in many professional discussion forums;it may be silly for someone(If someone felt it silly,then why can't they give the right answer !!!)but crucial/critical for me.The universal law in a professional discussion forum is that, those who are not interested to help/guide youngsters or unable to provide precise information , please be silent and stay away from that particular thread(ie,be professional).I don't think that the people ,those who made bad or silly remark on some ones query are modern Einsteens or Issac Newtons !!! More over I don't think that ISO 9000 is a 'rocket science' which contain complex mathematical calculations and empirical formulas !!!.

Regards,

Katchani

 

[Marc]

Hi Mark,

I think you just misunderstood me.I was supporting you by quoting your previous comments. <snip>

Which is what I said.

Unfortunately this thread is getting into personalities and I think it is best to close it which is something I rarely do.

Let's all move on to current threads and let this one go.