Some questions on Management Review

rogerpenna

Quite Involved in Discussions
btw, ever heard
"Public sector can only do what is explicitly allowed by law, while the private sector can do anything that is not explicitly prohibited by law."?

so our interactions with our customers are based on that. We don´t have to PLEASE the customer. In fact, trying to PLEASE the customer doing more than what the Public Bidding Process determined us to do, might be outright illegal

a contractor company that goes beyond what is required by the procurement law and its public notice can attract the attention of the Public Prosecutor's Office and other control bodies. Acting beyond what is strictly required may raise suspicions about the motivations behind these additional actions, especially in a context where transparency and compliance with regulations are crucial.

There are some reasons for suspicions and investigations:
Compliance with the Public Notice: The procurement public notice establishes specific criteria and requirements that must be followed. Any action beyond what is specified can be seen as an attempt to gain undue advantages or to corrupt the procurement process.

Fraud Precedents: There are precedents where companies offer more than necessary to influence the decision of public managers or to justify future contract addendums. This can be interpreted as an attempt at fraud or corruption.

Transparency and Equal Conditions: Procurement aims to ensure that all competitors have equal conditions. If a company does more than required, it may seem that it received privileged information or that it is trying to influence the evaluation criteria.


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Therefore, returning to the question about what can be more on top of mind than customer satisfaction

public contractors focus might shift from direct customer feedback to ensuring compliance with regulations, meeting contractual obligations, and maintaining transparency.

When discussing strategic decisions in this context, the focus might be less on traditional customer satisfaction metrics and more on how well the company aligns with legal requirements, meets the needs of public procurement, and contributes to public interest. This can make some parts of standards, like direct customer feedback, seem less immediately relevant to top management because the "customer" in public contracting isn't an individual consumer but rather a regulatory or governmental body with specific, often rigid, expectations.


In the private sector, customer satisfaction is a key driver of repeat business and customer loyalty, allowing companies to differentiate themselves by offering superior products or services, sometimes at a premium price.

However, when over 95% of your business is based on public sector and regulated by the bidding process and law, even the highest quality service doesn't guarantee future contracts if a competitor can underbid us by even a small margin. This legally mandated focus on the lowest bid can make efforts to exceed customer expectations seem less valuable because it doesn't directly influence future opportunities.
 
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gakiss2

Involved In Discussions
Disclaimer: I have zero experience with this industry / space. Your discussion interests me so I'll comment first and ask questions later.

I follow your discussion why customer satisfaction doesn't work in your industry. But ISO 9K was designed 'by' the customers or at least a body representing their interests. So the question that comes to mind is WHO (which customer) said that you had to be ISO 9K? It would seem that at least they don't understand what they are asking for.
Along the same lines of logic, I would also say that the requirement to focus on customer satisfaction was not put there to assure ISO 9K businesses are profitable or successful. It is there (IMHO) purely as a customer demanding that its satisfaction be focused on.
I suppose this all sounds a bit cynical but it is what I have learned about the world of QMS.
A different perspective that your comments bring to mind, is that your customer's satisfaction is best defined as achieving precise compliance and full transparency.
I'm not at all sure I was helpful but thanks for the opportunity to comment.
 

AliGuff

Starting to get Involved
Our MRM agenda covers all inputs and outputs of the standard. We have an MRM every six months which is minuted.

Not all aspects are covered in each meeting. As long as you can show all inputs and outputs have been covered by MRM or other Management Meetings throughout the year, this should be OK. Your evidence should be minuted.

Every external auditor I have dealt with has always asked for the MRM minutes
 

Ed Panek

QA RA Small Med Dev Company
Leader
Super Moderator
some of these are decisions discussed at Strategic Planning meetings, not on Management Review
others are discussed on weekly meetings between management and the engineers, about costs, pricing and other worksites discussions

we don´t lack meetings in the company. Which is exactly why the Management Review ends up being superfluous.

But to directly answer your question, the Operations Director (which is also a minor partner) only participates in meetings directly related to Operations and won´t care to spend his time in meetings where I will list every single time the Interested Parties (which everybody already knows) and if their interests are being met.
He already gets most of this info through other reports.




What our customers think about us is not on the top of the mind. 95% of our customers are government contracts at municipal and state level.

By LAW, what customers think about us doesn´t influence our past or future contracts.

We can make the best ever job, have the best ever customer service, have zero profit just to satisfy our customer.

Next bidding process, SAME customer, another company gives a 1% smaller budget, they win the contract.
In that case do the bare minimum to escape audits
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Leader
Admin
some of these are decisions discussed at Strategic Planning meetings, not on Management Review
others are discussed on weekly meetings between management and the engineers, about costs, pricing and other worksites discussions

we don´t lack meetings in the company. Which is exactly why the Management Review ends up being superfluous.

But to directly answer your question, the Operations Director (which is also a minor partner) only participates in meetings directly related to Operations and won´t care to spend his time in meetings where I will list every single time the Interested Parties (which everybody already knows) and if their interests are being met.
He already gets most of this info through other reports.
Just word your current process into your MR procedure. This is an excerpt from our procedure:

The Management Review is not necessarily a single presentation or event. It is the combination of all of the information, discussions, and decisions that leaders have to cover the required elements. The senior leaders address all required elements of the management review at least annually. Many elements are covered by regularly scheduled meetings and reviews. Only the remaining elements are addressed in a dedicated management review document, which itself is one of the regular reviews shared with senior leaders.
 

rogerpenna

Quite Involved in Discussions
Just word your current process into your MR procedure. This is an excerpt from our procedure:

The Management Review is not necessarily a single presentation or event. It is the combination of all of the information, discussions, and decisions that leaders have to cover the required elements. The senior leaders address all required elements of the management review at least annually. Many elements are covered by regularly scheduled meetings and reviews. Only the remaining elements are addressed in a dedicated management review document, which itself is one of the regular reviews shared with senior leaders.

That totally makes sense to me. Seems it follows the spirit of the rule instead of the letter of the rule, where although it's a little open to interpretation, seems to indicate specific meetings called Management Review where in each you must discuss all those topics.
 

rogerpenna

Quite Involved in Discussions
Disclaimer: I have zero experience with this industry / space. Your discussion interests me so I'll comment first and ask questions later.

I follow your discussion why customer satisfaction doesn't work in your industry. But ISO 9K was designed 'by' the customers or at least a body representing their interests. So the question that comes to mind is WHO (which customer) said that you had to be ISO 9K? It would seem that at least they don't understand what they are asking for.

No customer asked for it. Some 20 years ago our company, which is a family-owned company, when the 2nd generation started working in it, decided to follow quality standards because of self analysis of how "messy" it was.

We started with 5S program, then ISO 9001 and then PBQP-h, which is a ISO9001 based certification for Quality and Productivity in Housing. Long ago there were indications that PBQP-h might be required for public biddings in Civil Infrastructure, but it never was. Despite it having some appendices regulating Civil Infrastructure, it's focus is clearly "housing". Plus, some lawsuits prevented it from ever being required in public biddings in our sector.


There WERE discussions with management about simply dropping the certificates and establishing our own management system, based on ISO9001 but only the parts that are important to us.

Management never accepted.

Along the same lines of logic, I would also say that the requirement to focus on customer satisfaction was not put there to assure ISO 9K businesses are profitable or successful. It is there (IMHO) purely as a customer demanding that its satisfaction be focused on.
I suppose this all sounds a bit cynical but it is what I have learned about the world of QMS.

Hmmm, I think it's a bit of each.

The rationale seems to be that consistently meeting customer requirements is essential for building trust, maintaining long-term relationships, and ultimately achieving business success... but the standard is not solely about customer satisfaction for its own sake, it's also is also about ensuring that the company can sustain itself and continue to operate effectively.

At least some of the clauses seem to go in that direction.

A different perspective that your comments bring to mind, is that your customer's satisfaction is best defined as achieving precise compliance and full transparency.
I'm not at all sure I was helpful but thanks for the opportunity to comment.
Yes, that perspective on our customer's satisfaction makes sense. It matches law requirements, not only "satisfaction" in the common sense of the word.
 

gakiss2

Involved In Discussions
Thank you for considering my input. Since there is no mandate to be certified then I would really push for a self defined system. If Mgmt is just dead set on paying someone 4 figures to have your company audited by a third party then have them do a custom audit based on your self defined system rather than strictly audit to ISO 9K.
I'm not against ISO 9K, I just hate to see wasted time and money when it seems that is not the best fit for your company.
Good Luck in your endeavors
 

rogerpenna

Quite Involved in Discussions
Thank you for considering my input. Since there is no mandate to be certified then I would really push for a self defined system. If Mgmt is just dead set on paying someone 4 figures to have your company audited by a third party then have them do a custom audit based on your self defined system rather than strictly audit to ISO 9K.
I'm not against ISO 9K, I just hate to see wasted time and money when it seems that is not the best fit for your company.
Good Luck in your endeavors

Wouldn´t the cost be the same, for a third party to audit based on our self defined system or ISO? I guess what matters is the man-hour auditor cost, right? At least, some 80% of the total cost.

There is another company we acquired recently, that makes concrete, and that one NEEDS ISO9001 and probably PBQP-h too. They lost some possible contracts because of it. It's the inverse, 95% of their clientes are private, including construction companies like our main company.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
Wouldn´t the cost be the same, for a third party to audit based on our self defined system or ISO? I guess what matters is the man-hour auditor cost, right? At least, some 80% of the total cos
Would your internal auditors get paid up to $1200 per day (exclusive)? That's what I got for my last 3rd party performed internal audits. $800-$1000 per day isn't that unusual. You pay that well as an employer?
 
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