Some Suppliers to TS 16949 companies told they cannot register to TS 16949

T

Tim Geitner

#1
Iso / Ts 16949

Hello:

I work for a manufacturing company that supplies to the automotive companies as a tier 1, 2, and 3 supplier. In the past, we required all of our "key critical" suppliers to be QS-9000 registered, or at least, have an acceptable timeline for registration. Our "key critical" companies include raw materials, outside secondaries, and component suppliers for our assemblies. Basically, we consider any supplier that has something in our parts or touches our parts a "key critical" supplier. Examples of raw material suppliers or suppliers that put something into our parts includes the following: raw material supplies, resin suppliers, etc.. Examples of outside secondary suppliers that touch our parts includes the following: plating, heat treat, inspection, etc..

My question / concern is this:
We are beginning to advise our suppliers that they will need to change to ISO / TS 16949 registration. In turn, some of our suppliers are beginning to contact their registers. We recently have had two of our outside secondary suppliers (a heat treat company and a plater) tell us that their register told them they are not eligible for 16949 registration. I advised them that since they are a supplier to us and we require for them to become certified, then they are eligible. Soon after making this statement to them, I received a phone call from one of their registers who told me he could not audit them to the 16949 standard, but indicated that ISO 9001 (2000) would be applicable. I advised him that we require registration for this supplier to the 16949 standard and he reiterated his stance. He also stated that unless this supplier supplies us with a raw material or a component, they are not eligible for certification to ISO/TS 16949.

I advised him that this is not our understanding and indicated that the ISO 9001 2000 standard lacks many of our requirements, whereas, these requirements are included in the ISO/TS 16949 standard. He indicated that these suppliers would need to be ISO 9001 2000 certified and we can include customer specific requirements. I advised him that this would create extra effort on our part to ensure that all of our suppliers are compliant to our "extra customer requirements".

After speaking with this individual, I sent an email to an AIAG and IATF task force member and received a response that basically states my question will be forwarded to the proper parties, but it does not guarantee a response. It also stated for me to work with our customer or Registrar for clarification of the standards.

I would greatly appreciate others thoughts and clarification. Ultimately, I hope there is documented interpretation that agrees with me as I would be greatly disturbed if a "key critical" supplier to our company is ineligible for registration.

I apologize for this lengthly message, but as you can tell, I am very frustrated.

Thank you very much,
Tim
 
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A

Angela-2007

#2
Sounds to me like the registar is right. If your supplier is not supplying a production part TS would not be applicable. How have you been able to require your suppliers to be QS registered if they do not supply directly to the automotive industry? Or have you required them to be ISO?

But to answer your questions TS does not and will not apply to just any company. They are pretty defined as to who it applies to. The other companies will become ISO9000:2000.

Angela
 
#3
IMO, the CB is correct. Refer to the scope and para 7.4.1.2 of TS2.
Applies to Mfg sites who manufacture production and service parts. The organization shall develop suppliers with a goal of "conformity" to the TS2. Suppliers shall be third party certified to ISO9K2K unless otherwise specified by the customer.
 
D

D.Scott

#4
Hi Tim - Welcome to the Cove.

I, as a subcontractor, have trouble accepting the need to become certified to 16949 or anything else for that matter. I could readily accept "compliance" as a requirement which gets all the "extras" like PPAP, into their system.

The whole idea of providing you with a piece of paper that says I am certified is really non-value added and serves only to keep the registration bodies in business. Lets face it; if our quality, delivery, service, or style of haircut didn't suit you, you wouldn't be doing business with us even if we were certified. Having a piece of paper in your drawer means nothing if our practice with you doesn't match up.

As a 16949 company, you are required to monitor the performance of your suppliers. This isn't done by looking at their certificate. You evaluate them with every contact you have with them. If a non-certified company sends you a perfect PPAP package and backs it up by never giving you a problem, are you going to evaluate them lower than the "screw-up" supplier with a certification? If so, certification is driving you in the wrong direction.

I advised him that this would create extra effort on our part to ensure that all of our suppliers are compliant to our "extra customer requirements".
If you are truly monitoring the performance of your suppliers, there should be no "extra effort" needed. All suppliers, certified or not, should have the same requirements and you would know by daily performance if they were meeting your requirements.

If you stated in your contract that all suppliers had to submit level 3 PPAPs on every part, the non-certified suppliers don't get a "get out of jail free" card just because they aren't certified.

I have a real problem with companies who try to make the case that without certification there is no verification that the supplier has a suitable quality system. First, just because some auditor comes for lunch doesn't verify it either. Second, there is no substitute for verification through actual business relationship.

To illustrate the inconsistancy of the current system, I offer this.
You have a supplier who is certified and has the highest rating of all your suppliers. They have never had a quality problem, deliveries are always on time and their price is far below the nearest competitor. During their latest surveillance audit they are cited for 1) not maintaining their PPAP files in a single location, 2) not making the Business Plan a controlled document, 3) not tracking excess freight and 4) purchasing from a non-certified supplier.

All this leads to the eventual suspension and revocation of their certification (yeah right - only if they didn't pay their bill). The question now is - do you drop them as a supplier? Do you care about any of the nonconformances? Have any of them had any effect on your company? Who's judgement of their system is more valid - your's or the registrar?

Sorry to ramble on but it is a long-winded way of saying I think 16949 was written for a specific group of suppliers to the Big 3 and that passing that requirement down the line will create the same problems we had with QS. Plain and simple the further down the supply chain you go, the less it applies to "real life"

We were "mandated" to get QS when it came out and did. It is surprising how many of those same customers who mandated it still accepted quotes from non-certified suppliers based on price.

Dave
 
K

Ken K

#5
Very well said Dave.

QS is being laid to rest for a reason...I just hope the same problems don't migrate to TS.
 
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