Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001?

[Bifften]

Hi,

I am looking at the ISO:9001 standard, in particular 8.2.2 Internal Audit

I have been asked to conduct the internal audit at my company, without training in this, prior to the external audit in May.

I am wondering if there is a specific requirement for Internal Auditor competancy / experience / training which I would like to be able to refer to in advance of this to cover myself.

Many thanks,

Bifften

 

[Bifften]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

In addition,

Is it possible for a non conformity / obersation to be given by an External auditor if they perceive -

- Internal audit has not been conducted properly

or

- Internal audit was done by untrained persons (regardless of the quality of the audit conducted)

Thanks!

Bifften

 

[prototyper]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

Hi,

I am looking at the ISO:9001 standard, in particular 8.2.2 Interal Audit

I have been asked to conduct the internal audit at my company, without training in this, prior to the external audit in May.

I am wondering if there is a specific requirement for Internal Auditor competancy / experience / training which I would like to be able to refer to in advance of this to cover myself.

Many thanks,

Bifften

Hi Bifften,

See this article from Paul Simpson, http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=300534&postcount=66

Competency is something which is difficult to demonstrate without practical experience even if you have been on the courses.

A good training course will explain how to conduct an audit, ie. prepare your questions, audit the processes, write up findings, conduct a close out meeting, etc. but how to ask the questions and follow up on an audit trail is something which comes with practice and confidence.

 

[brahmaiah]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

ISO 9001 doesnot mention training of internal auditors specifically.But by implication of clause 6.2.1 Training is required for internal auditors. Clause 6.2.1 implies that,Training/suitable education/experiance is required for all personnel 'performing any task' within the quality management system
Well, if there is an operator who does not possess any evidence of training it may go unnoticed.But if you have an internal auditor without training ,auditor will most probably notice.
Some auditors insist on a fresh training everytime ISO9001 is revised. Even If you are very experianced ISO9000-2002 INTERNAL AUDITOR, the certifying auditor CAN insist on retrainIing you on ISO 9001-2008 INTERNAL AUDIT TRAINING.

Any one pl.tell me if I am wrong.

V.J.Brahmaiah

 

[Stijloor]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

ISO 9001 doesnot mention training of internal auditors specifically.But by implication of clause 6.2.1 Training is required for internal auditors. Clause 6.2.1 implies that,Training/suitable education/experiance is required for all personnel 'performing any task' within the quality management system
Well, if there is an operator who does not possess any evidence of training it may go unnoticed.But if you have an internal auditor without training ,auditor will most probably notice.
Some auditors insist on a fresh training everytime ISO9001 is revised. Even If you are very experianced ISO9000-2002 INTERNAL AUDITOR, the certifying auditor CAN insist on retrainIing you on ISO 9001-2008 INTERNAL AUDIT TRAINING.

Any one pl.tell me if I am wrong.

V.J.Brahmaiah

Auditors can not "insist." They just need to verify that internal auditors are competent. Period. ISO 9001:2008 does not contain new requirements. So if an auditor was competent before.....they're competent now.

Stijloor.

 

[Colin]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

I completely agree with Prototyper. Conducting decent audits can be difficult enough when you have had training - but without, very tough.

As for getting an NC, if I was the auditor I would look at the audits you have done and determine whether they were of the appropriate standard and I would ask what training you had received on the subject.

If the audits were acceptable then I would conclude that you were competent and if they are not good enough I would conclude that you were not suitably competent - irrespective of the training you had received.

Please also don't forget that you cannot conduct all of the audits yourself. There will be some subjects for which you are not 'objective and impartial'.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

Biff:

Is there some way you could get someone to come and do an audit with you as a means of 'mentoring' you? An experienced person who could come and guide you through the process, maybe have them establish the audit process with you? I'd like to think that your company would at least spring for the cost of petrol and some lunch........that would certainly help to address both what Protoyper and Colin are saying about just doing a course.

Anyone you know - at a local company or could be approached through the CIQA, for example?

 

[bio_subbu]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

Hi Bifften

Conducting an internal audit without proper training is very difficult, everyone can perform their assigned task but auditors are no exception. Unless a person already has an extensive background in auditing, training will be required. So organize a training program in-house or outside agency and the minimum requirement of internal auditor training should consist of the following areas

1. Introduction- Management system overview

Management system structure
Management system purpose
The process and systems approach to management
Management System documentation

2. Introduction- Management system audit

The purpose of the audit
Types of audits (Internal, second party and third party Audits and etc)
Types of findings
- Major and minor non-conformances
- Opportunities for improvement
- Best practices
The audit process

3. Audit Planning

Determining audit scope and purpose
Identifying, collecting and reviewing audit criteria
Developing audit check list
Developing audit plan
Communicating the audit plan

4. Audit Execution

Interview basics
Verifying conformance
Verifying effectiveness
Identifying opportunities for improvement
Managing Audit conflict
Documenting findings
The closing meeting

5. Post audit Activities

The Audit report
Verification of audit corrective action (Long –term/ short term/remedial action)
Audit files and closeout

Hope this gives you better understanding.

Thanks and Regards
S. Subramaniam, INDIA

 

[Bifften]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

I have requested training and have been informed that it is "in budget" for approval at the end of our financial year. I cannot really anticipate this training taking place until later summer at the earliest.

The Internal Audit is required to be completed prior to our external audit in May (less than 3 weeks time)

My main question is whether I should / (or could) flat out to refuse to do this audit and if I would have a concrete part of the ISO standard I could point to?

In previous years the QMS has always been audited by the Supply Chain Managers auditing each other, on a random schedule - although this has not always been completed . This time I have been assigned to audit everyone, without much time...

Our external auditor is weak and my boss (HSQE Manager) assures me that he'll barely even look at the internal audit (this is probably true). But I think it is best if I raise the concern prior - I don't want to risk being blamed should there be a non-conformity on this area from the external audit:mg:

 

[Colin]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

It really is a horrible position to be in but I would think carefully about the possible repercussions of refusing to do the audits - as you have seen, there is no statement specifically stating that 'the auditor shall be trained'.

It is a ad but true fact that your external auditor may give your internal audits a cursory glance. You could always have a quiet word in his/her ear and suggest that they raise an NC on the standard of audits to force your boss's hand

If things get really bad, PM me and I will send you some basic info on internal audits - not ideal but better than nothing.