Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001?

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

My main question is whether I should / (or could) flat out to refuse to do this audit and if I would have a concrete part of the ISO standard I could point to?

I don't know how many times one can say: THERE ARE NO NEW REQUIREMENTS. If one was deemed competent to audit against ISO 9001:2000 and are "unsure" about ISO 9001:2008, something is fundamentally wrong. Have you read the revised standard? If so, what part of the document, are you concerned with?

 

[prototyper]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

I don't know how many times one can say: THERE ARE NO NEW REQUIREMENTS. If one was deemed competent to audit against ISO 9001:2000 and are "unsure" about ISO 9001:2008, something is fundamentally wrong. Have you read the revised standard? If so, what part of the document, are you concerned with?

Bifften's concerns are not around the transition from 2000 to 2008, they are that he is new to quality, he has had no audit training whatsoever and he is being asked to audit his company's QMS.

 

[prototyper]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

I have requested training and have been informed that it is "in budget" for approval at the end of our financial year. I cannot really anticipate this training taking place until later summer at the earliest.

The Internal Audit is required to be completed prior to our external audit in May (less than 3 weeks time)

My main question is whether I should / (or could) flat out to refuse to do this audit and if I would have a concrete part of the ISO standard I could point to?

In previous years the QMS has always been audited by the Supply Chain Managers auditing each other, on a random schedule - although this has not always been completed . This time I have been assigned to audit everyone, without much time...

Our external auditor is weak and my boss (HSQE Manager) assures me that he'll barely even look at the internal audit (this is probably true). But I think it is best if I raise the concern prior - I don't want to risk being blamed should there be a non-conformity on this area from the external audit:mg:

I wouldn't refuse to conduct the audits as this could cause you more problems at work.
I would send an e-mail to your boss (so you have a record of your concerns) stating that you don't feel that you have the necessary competence to audit, but that you are more than willing to attempt it.
That way, you can not be percieved as intransigent and he cannot hang you out to dry if there is a resulting non-conformance at the external audit.

I have sent you a pm with my phone number. Call me and I will discuss your concerns and try to offer some practical advice.

Mick

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

Bifften's concerns are not around the transition from 2000 to 2008, they are that he is new to quality, he has had no audit training whatsoever and he is being asked to audit his company's QMS.

That being the case, my apologies for my previous post. If an organization assigns someone to perform an internal audit, without making sure the individual is competent for the function, they are obviously violating the requirements and intent of ISO 9001. While training alone does not make one competent, it is a typical component of the competence-building process.

 

[RJFisher]

Here's a good one...

During our last 3rd Party SA, our auditor kept stating that "in the new standard, auditor competency is a new focal point" (like outsourced processes)... Well, we bought the new standard, and I see nowhere that auditor competency is specifically stated (besides in the implied 6.2.1). My supervisor (QA Mgr) says that it is referenced in ISO 19011, which is referenced by the standard (ISO 9001:2008, 8.2.2 "NOTE See ISO 19011 for guidance"), and therefore must be followed. And, it (19011-2004) has several guidelines in Section 7 - Competence and evaluation of auditors.

Now, IMHO, according to ISO 9001:2008, our company must decide what makes an internal auditor (or employee in any position for that matter) competent, and then show the appropriate evidence of that competency? Do I have this right?

I have no formal training, other than the OJT I've received from my QA mgr actually doing the internal audits for our company on a monthly basis for the last year.... He considers me an internal auditor under him as the lead auditor (w/formal and OJT training).

 

[AndyN]

Re: Specific requirement for Internal Auditor training in ISO 9001:2000?

Hi Bifften

Conducting an internal audit without proper training is very difficult, everyone can perform their assigned task but auditors are no exception. Unless a person already has an extensive background in auditing, training will be required. So organize a training program in-house or outside agency and the minimum requirement of internal auditor training should consist of the following areas

1. Introduction- Management system overview

Management system structure
Management system purpose
The process and systems approach to management
Management System documentation

2. Introduction- Management system audit

The purpose of the audit
Types of audits (Internal, second party and third party Audits and etc)
Types of findings
- Major and minor non-conformances
- Opportunities for improvement
- Best practices
The audit process

3. Audit Planning

Determining audit scope and purpose
Identifying, collecting and reviewing audit criteria
Developing audit check list
Developing audit plan
Communicating the audit plan

4. Audit Execution

Interview basics
Verifying conformance
Verifying effectiveness
Identifying opportunities for improvement
Managing Audit conflict
Documenting findings
The closing meeting

5. Post audit Activities

The Audit report
Verification of audit corrective action (Long –term/ short term/remedial action)
Audit files and closeout

Hope this gives you better understanding.

Thanks and Regards
S. Subramaniam, INDIA

Given the fact that the OP doesn't have the time or support to get the training, this is unlikely to occur. I'd suggest that it's also not required to go through about 2/3 of this material to be a competent auditor.

 

[JaneB]

Biften,

They're asking you to do something that just isn't a reasonable ask.

Essentially, if you don't know how to audit, haven't had any training or experience, and are being directed to audit your company's QMS, it's a big ask and unfair.

Have a close look at clause 6.2 which is all about having competent people.

While it isn't specific to audit, but is critical, and underlines all other clauses of ISO 9001.

Oh yeah, and beyond being unfair, it's not good management and could be risky and isn't really a good idea (I'd say unintelligent, but that might be a bit too blunt). Like sending someone like me (say) to do an audit of a chemical lab. I know about audit, but what I know about chemistry would fit in a matchbox - how accurate, useful and reliable do you think the report of that audit might be? Would you want to stake your reputation on it? I wouldn't.

 

[Terrisandrew]

What does your quality system say about the need for internal auditor training? If your quality system does not address this then I agree that the CB auditor would judge if you were competent by looking at your audits. The suggestion of having an experienced auditor accompany you is excellent. I think you will learn a lot this way - I know I leaned a lot this way.

 

[Sam4Quality]

Originally Posted by Bifften

I have requested training and have been informed that it is "in budget" for approval at the end of our financial year. I cannot really anticipate this training taking place until later summer at the earliest.

The Internal Audit is required to be completed prior to our external audit in May (less than 3 weeks time)

My main question is whether I should / (or could) flat out to refuse to do this audit and if I would have a concrete part of the ISO standard I could point to?

In previous years the QMS has always been audited by the Supply Chain Managers auditing each other, on a random schedule - although this has not always been completed . This time I have been assigned to audit everyone, without much time...

Our external auditor is weak and my boss (HSQE Manager) assures me that he'll barely even look at the internal audit (this is probably true). But I think it is best if I raise the concern prior - I don't want to risk being blamed should there be a non-conformity on this area from the external audit:mg:

Bifften, with respect to all posts here, I would greatly encourage you to conduct this internal audit, even if it does not turn out to be atleast up to your unsure expectations.

While you have mentioned that you are not competent to conduct the audits, did you ever give it a second thought whether the Supply Chain Managers were competent enough to conduct the audits that they have, in the past? And even if they were, now the task has been transfered on your able shoulders! Take up the challenge, do a little theoretical reading on this cove, get acquainted with the Audit Checklist and its usage (you'll get many examples of good simple checklists here!)

While you are doing all this discreetly (unless your boss is a good help), keep a very close tab on prototypers suggestion on informing your boss about the ground realities, so you have made yourself clear on your audit capabilities and the consequences of the external audit.

Conduct the audits, keep your boss well-informed of the proceedings. Visit this cove for any information/help/suggestion you need, and we would be mroe than happy to help you.

The most crucial in terms of Internal Audits would be any NC's/observations generated, corrections and corrective actions taken on them. I am hopeful you will be able to scrape through with some observations and worst come worse, a minor NC! An NC does not mean that you are black listed by the CB, or your job is in danger! It gives you a great opportunity to improve upon what went wrong and can be corrected and even eliminated!
Keep your boss informed at all times.

Ciao.

 

[Randy]

Hey, we ain't talking rocket science here (I know what rocket science is after working at the Marshal Space Flight Center and this ain't it)

If our OP were to get training he would only get swamped with "the orgaization shall..." and that's about it, he still wouldn't be much better off when it came to doing his "system" audit.

Hey Biften!

The task for any auditor of a management system is to look for evidence....Now evidence can be from a record, chart, report, observation, spoken word, or whatever else that proves what is required to be done is being done and is being done as planned (that's the effectiveness piece).

Basically all you need to do is look at "your" QMS documentation (all your plans, procedures, policies, work instructions, flowcharts or whatever)determine:

• what is supposed to be happening,
• who is supposed to do it,
• can they really do it like they are supposed to, and
• whether plans, goals, results, customer requirements are being achieved as planned

The above is dependant on whether or not your QMS meets the minimal requirments of 9001...Now if your not sure then take 9001, look at the shall's, and ask the simple question "Do we?" for every shall. Go from there.

Where something doesn't match up with what is supposed to be happening...write it up.

Where you find proof (evidence) of what is supposed to happen actually occuring..write that up too.

There it is............

Don't believe all this garbage about having to have 40 hours of this and 10hours of that and 8 years of whatever along with being a Quality expert.....Horsebagels

I have seen well audited systems performed by folks with no formal training, having nothing more than their head out of their 5th point of contact, basic reasoning skills and the desire to do a good job.

Do it and learn from it.