Specifications Aerospace - Who is responsible for providing the correct specification(s)

mattador78

Involved In Discussions
#1
Just a quick question who fundamentally is responsible for providing the correct specification's, stay with me on this. Recently we have been provided by customers with old MIL SPECS which are 40 years out of date and obviously several revisions behind. We have been informing the customers of this and what we know to be the latest revision for the SPEC. However, what if we are wrong should it not be the customer providing us with the correct information and if it is wrong surely it is their responsibility to discover the correct one. We plate parts for people where they ask for the items to be ROSH and WEE compliant and we comply with that for them, in that regard the responsibility is on the customer to know what finish they need for the product they have manufactured not for us to advise them on what they need on the finished product. Would this not be the same with aerospace or similar industries?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#2
What if the parts you are plating are for a B-52? And the contract specifications have not been updated since the 1970’s? Some old military parts still invoke old mil stds. It is up to the customers to confirm the revision level of the specs to be used, as many times, they are contractually specified.
 

mattador78

Involved In Discussions
#3
That's the point we are after as I say we are only advising customers that we know that the spec has been superseded and we assumed it was their responsibility to know what they required, however some of these items are commercial yet we are still provided with a MIL-SPEC that is where we have the difficulties. Speaking of the B-52 we cant do their parts as its Boeing, but we do a lot for Spitfires as a local company here reconditions them, its a really beautiful aircraft to look at not like the BUFF lol
 

dwperron

Trusted Information Resource
#4
If you are providing services per AS9100, then this would apply:

"8.2.3 Review of the Requirements for Products and Services
8.2.3.1 The organization shall ensure that it has the ability to meet the requirements for products and services to be
offered to customers. The organization shall conduct a review before committing to supply products and services
to the customer, to include:
a. requirements specified by the customer.....
The customer requirements shall be confirmed by the organization before acceptance, when the customer does not provide
a documented statement of their requirements."

Rule of thumb is to use the most recent revision of a standards unless directed otherwise by the customer.
 

Eredhel

Quality Manager
#5
Have you asked them specifically which Rev they want? I had a customer once that asked for a Rev on a certain process that was out of date and no longer available. Once we let them know they checked on the newest Rev and approved it. But they need to let you know which Rev they want, and then you can go from there.

Edit: Although I do have experience with government contracts where you can't get answers in time. We've no quoted those.
 

mattador78

Involved In Discussions
#6
We are asking its just some don't know! We are new in the aerospace market and its amazing how dumb some of our customers are, we are being very thorough in our outlook at the moment as we move towards certification and it is working well for us, its just that as mentioned we would assume that clause 8.2 would apply to the customer before it came to us i.e. they would know what the end user wants. We don't have this problem with MBDA its some of the smaller companies which we do work for that are either not checking or just relying on us to correct. As Sidney pointed out it could be for a historic part in that regard we don't know what its going on, therefore if we advise to an updated spec but it should have been produced to an older one who is responsible then?
 
#7
If you are providing services per AS9100, then this would apply:

"8.2.3 Review of the Requirements for Products and Services
8.2.3.1 The organization shall ensure that it has the ability to meet the requirements for products and services to be
offered to customers. The organization shall conduct a review before committing to supply products and services
to the customer, to include:
a. requirements specified by the customer.....
The customer requirements shall be confirmed by the organization before acceptance, when the customer does not provide
a documented statement of their requirements."

Rule of thumb is to use the most recent revision of a standards unless directed otherwise by the customer.
That's dangerous. It's far better to seek clarification, instead of using "rules of thumb" which comes from an old British saying about spousal abuse...
 

dwperron

Trusted Information Resource
#8
That's dangerous. It's far better to seek clarification, instead of using "rules of thumb" which comes from an old British saying about spousal abuse...
You are correct there. I live in the 17025 regulated world where the most recent revision of any standard is required unless the customer wants (or agrees to) an older version.

Choice of revisions is always a part of the contract review conversation. The whole AS9100 8.2.3 Review section prompts a dialog between you and your customer. If you have concerns regarding obsolete MIL SPECs being requested you are really obligated to bring that up and come to a mutual resolution. You can't force them to be smart, but you can at least inform them when they might be wrong.

Mattador 78 appears to be in a tough position, as he seems to fear that his customer doesn't understand the requirements of their customer - the end user.
 
#9
You are correct there. I live in the 17025 regulated world where the most recent revision of any standard is required unless the customer wants (or agrees to) an older version.

Choice of revisions is always a part of the contract review conversation. The whole AS9100 8.2.3 Review section prompts a dialog between you and your customer. If you have concerns regarding obsolete MIL SPECs being requested you are really obligated to bring that up and come to a mutual resolution. You can't force them to be smart, but you can at least inform them when they might be wrong.

Mattador 78 appears to be in a tough position, as he seems to fear that his customer doesn't understand the requirements of their customer - the end user.
Which, when included in the dialog with the client, by informed, competent sales people (or whomever) makes the difference between a "compliance" type QMS and a "Customer Focused" QMS which bring value to the supplier/client relationship...
 

mattador78

Involved In Discussions
#10
You are correct there. I live in the 17025 regulated world where the most recent revision of any standard is required unless the customer wants (or agrees to) an older version.

Choice of revisions is always a part of the contract review conversation. The whole AS9100 8.2.3 Review section prompts a dialog between you and your customer. If you have concerns regarding obsolete MIL SPECs being requested you are really obligated to bring that up and come to a mutual resolution. You can't force them to be smart, but you can at least inform them when they might be wrong.

Mattador 78 appears to be in a tough position, as he seems to fear that his customer doesn't understand the requirements of their customer - the end user.
Its not fear its more quizzical as to how they don't know but expect us to know what they want. We are running on the principle we inform them that there is a more recent specification and what that is. it just questions how you can issue a cofc for an "obsolete" specification. This comes back to how far down the chain the customer is I suppose. However naming no names I was dealing with a large company the other day who questioned a cofc we supplied them as it was to the 5th revision and they didn't have a copy of that only the 4th which hadn't been used for 6 months I sent them a copy to help them out :blowup:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
S ATA (Aerospace Testing Alliance) Specifications 100, 200 and 300 AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 1
J Fluorescent Penetrant Inspection Specifications Aerospace AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 3
V Customer Print Specifications on PFMEA FMEA and Control Plans 13
R BS EN 12060:1998 - Zinc and zinc alloys Method of sampling Specifications Manufacturing and Related Processes 4
M MDR "Common Specifications" (CS) - If not standards, then what? EU Medical Device Regulations 3
G Engineering Specifications - APQP APQP and PPAP 5
M Measuring Capability of Process with Multiple Specifications Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 6
DuncanGibbons OEM specifications such as AIPS spec from Airbus AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 3
E Packaging Specifications Mercedes-Benz U.S. International IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
C Taking exception to customer requirements or specifications & AS9100D AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 6
P Software requirement and design specifications - Medical device contains both hardware and software IEC 62304 - Medical Device Software Life Cycle Processes 2
M Informational EU – Draft Functional specifications for the European Database on Medical Devices (Eudamed) – First release (High(1)) to be audited Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 0
D Raw Material chemical/Tensile Requirements Specifications (QQ-A-250/4, etc) AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 3
2 ASTM or ISO Specifications on Prints Other US Medical Device Regulations 2
R Control of COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) Specifications ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 2
I Procedures from recognized standards or specifications ISO 17025 related Discussions 3
S Test Specifications based on Vehicle Type Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 0
P Help with 8.5.1 regarding Welding Procedure Specifications (WPS's) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
A Technical Documentation - Manufacturing Specifications EU Medical Device Regulations 4
Z How to Contractually Agree on Specifications for Raw Material Purchases Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 15
J Change in Lot Release Specifications - Definition of "Substantial Change" EU Medical Device Regulations 14
T ISO 13485 Label Specifications and Artwork Control ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
alonFAI SMT machine specifications and performance meet the requirements for our production Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
N Subscription Service to Raw Material Specifications AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 6
W Japanese Steel Specifications - A material called HNCM220M Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
A Procedure for Labeling Review and Approval and Specifications Matrix US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 2
M Design Inputs - Final Medical Device Specifications 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 5
Q How to handle customer request for changing specifications 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 2
O Functional Specifications - Tracability to requirements? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 4
H Resistance Temperature Detectors (RTD) Manufacturer's Specifications General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
K Thermocouples Hot Junction and Number of Uses Specifications AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 4
K What is included in Raw Material and Component Specifications for Medical Devices? Other Medical Device Related Standards 3
A Are Software Requirements Specifications part of Design Input? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 3
T How to keep Customer Engineering Specifications & CSRs Up to Date IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
N Control of Documents Scope - Product Specifications ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
O Specifications as requirements? Other US Medical Device Regulations 8
W Who in your company writes your policies, procedures, specifications etc. Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 10
M Thread Ring Gauge Specifications General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
U Looking for Bolt Thread Specifications for Delrin & Aluminum Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 3
Q Standards or Specifications required for Garbage Truck Compressors Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 1
V Where to get MS501 Chrysler Specifications APQP and PPAP 3
V Evaluation of Paint Specifications including such as GM 9984123 and GM 14671 APQP and PPAP 1
D M6X1 Thread Specifications Manufacturing and Related Processes 7
S Template for Product Specifications for Calcium Salt with the Chemical Composition Food Safety - ISO 22000, HACCP (21 CFR 120) 3
Z Control Plan & FMEA Specifications - Level of Details FMEA and Control Plans 4
D Use of Customer Specifications to calculate Cpk IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
A Document Level for Drawings and Specifications ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
G Query on Capability of Stdev Specifications Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 9
K How do ISO 9001 Requirements apply to 2 sets of specifications to 2 separate vendors? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
B Repeatability vs. Instrument Specifications Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 6
Similar threads


















































Top Bottom