Stamping Documents that are not being controlled with "For Reference Only"

G

global citizen

#1
I have heard and read about documents that are not being controlled but are stamped ‘For Reference Only’. Now, some of our guys just want to stamp their documents with it just so they won’t have to control them. When can we use this? Does ISO even allow this? I guess my confusion with this is that if you are using it for reference, then it means you need the data on it. If you need the data on it, then you need to have the latest.

How does this work? Thank you!
 
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Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I don't agree with the use of Reference Only documents. The standard requires that the documents that pertain to the QMS need to be controlled, in my opinion.

The only time that I would ever use Reference Only would be in Training and I would not allow the employees/students to take the Reference Only Documents with them.

Since the System is under review at different times (during the IA), the accidental possibility that the Reference Document is outdated is reasonably high. I have been involved with the Third Party Review (assessment) when by shear accident, the Auditor asks what procedures apply to your process? The employee has pulled out of their area an outdated procedure, and guess what happened...

This is just my opinion, and I am sure there will be other responses.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#3
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

So now, you find yourself in a situation where you must define what "for reference only" means. I use my work instructions for reference only, that doesn't mean that they are not controlled, or that they are not current documents. Actually, I'd venture to say that any document in your system is to be referred to for something.

Yes you can stamp document for reference only, but I'd suggest that auditors don't want to see you referring to these documents to do your every day jobs.

eta: stamping documents for reference only is a form of control.
 
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Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I agree with Coury that this can be a dangerous method to use but clause 4.2.3 g) does allow the retention of obsolete documents as long as they are identified as such. Now this may not cover all situations but the standard does allow this to happen.
 
Z

zancky

#5
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I suppose "not controlled document" was intended for copies given to Visitors , customer and sometime auditors when it is not necessary to inform/be sure they will need the last revision in the future
 

E Wall

Just Me!
Super Moderator
#6
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

In our procedures we define that reference documents may only be used if they do not affect product or process (which is very little that doesn't have at least a weak indirect link). Consequently, I think we may have 2 docs out there as 'reference', but they must be signed and dated by who authorized usage.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#7
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

In our procedures we define that reference documents may only be used if they do not affect product or process (which is very little that doesn't have at least a weak indirect link). Consequently, I think we may have 2 docs out there as 'reference', but they must be signed and dated by who authorized usage.
That's just it. Most "reference" docs are being controlled to a degree anyway. It is counterintuitive to use it. I find it simpler to allow different levels of control for different classes of docs. Then, these lower types can simply be controlled with a date and name/signature.

I like your short and simple approach.
 

CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#8
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I have heard and read about documents that are not being controlled but are stamped ‘For Reference Only’. Now, some of our guys just want to stamp their documents with it just so they won’t have to control them. When can we use this?
What is the risk of using a old version of a document?

For example - part drawings. You want these controlled so you are always making parts to the correct revision.

So ask yourself - what would happen if the document was revised or superseded?

Perhaps you can give us some examples of the documents that are stamped "Reference Only".
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I have heard and read about documents that are not being controlled but are stamped ‘For Reference Only’. Now, some of our guys just want to stamp their documents with it just so they won’t have to control them. When can we use this? Does ISO even allow this? I guess my confusion with this is that if you are using it for reference, then it means you need the data on it. If you need the data on it, then you need to have the latest.

How does this work? Thank you!:D
For all intents and purposes, what you have "heard" is inaccurate and misleading because it is based on a wrong interpretation of "control."

I have previously written an answer about "control" to you in this post
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=252976&postcount=4
That part you have described is a subset of document management usually termed "configuration management" or "revision control." Actual "control" entails determining

  1. who may author a document
  2. who shall approve a document
  3. who may modify document
  4. who may have access to read or copy a document
  5. how the document is stored and retrieved
  6. how the document is distributed to folks who need to have a copy and how the organization assures the document is the most recent approved copy when it is relied upon to perform an activity (build a product or move a production line, for example)
  7. the retention period before a document is reviewed or other disposition determined
Along the line, depending upon individual circumstances, the degree of "security" (signature verification, vaults, retina scans, etc.) may be layered in at any or all stages of the document management and control.
The idea of having a document which is obsolete (the usual idea of "reference only" is to have an obsolete document for REFERENCE to compare with a current version) available for someone to refer to for current use is not a good practice.

I suspect your folks who want to use "uncontrolled" documents really want to use "unsecured documents," which ARE the current versions, just not documents for which they have to sign in blood each time they hold or read a copy. The primary criterion is #6 above:
"how the document is distributed to folks who need to have a copy and how the organization assures the document is the most recent approved copy when it is relied upon to perform an activity (build a product or move a production line, for example)"
More and more, I believe everyone in your organization needs to be on the same page as to what is controlled, obsolete, or secured.
 
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G

global citizen

#10
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

Thank you all so much. I am reading all your posts and my head is swirling but I know I will make it. I'm just having information overload. :biglaugh:

I'll analyse everything and post what I will come up with and see if it works. Thanks again!
 
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