Stamping Documents that are not being controlled with "For Reference Only"

H

hazrat71

#11
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

There are no loopholes for document control, including calling something a "reference document." All documents are for reference purposes - we refer to them for information. The ISO 9000, 14001, 18001, 13485 standards require all management system documents both internally and externally originated to be controlled so that everyone knows the status of the information they are looking it - current or obsolete.

Marking something "Reference Only," or even "obsolete" does not exempt it from the standard's document control requirements. If you are concerned about difficulties controlling all your documents, look at the complexity of your control methods. It is easy to create your own pitfalls and red tape by playing document control games. The standard has very simple requirements for demonstrating any document is controlled: an identifier (name, number, or combination) and a revision level. Any other markings are above and beyond the standard requirements for demonstrating control and add only complexity without increasing control. It is also helpful to remember that it is the responsibility of the document user to verify the document is current prior to use. :read:
 
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G

global citizen

#12
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

What is the risk of using a old version of a document?

For example - part drawings. You want these controlled so you are always making parts to the correct revision.

So ask yourself - what would happen if the document was revised or superseded?

Perhaps you can give us some examples of the documents that are stamped "Reference Only".

Well, people print Work Instructions all the time and refer to them when they go to the lines and then save and forget the document for days and then refer back to them again. Or they keep hardcopies of forms 'just in case'. These can change overnight so I think I will write in the procedures that it is the document user's responsibility to verify if the document is current before use. I don't know if it will stop the risk of having obsolete documents floating around though.

Even though it is virtually impossible not to have any documents, just to get away from this, some of our people would tell me, 'well, I don't have any documents'. :lmao:

The Plant Manager wants to stamp the blueprint for moving the production line as "For Reference Only". :frust:
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#13
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

Well, people print Work Instructions all the time and refer to them when they go to the lines and then save and forget the document for days and then refer back to them again. Or they keep hardcopies of forms 'just in case'. These can change overnight so I think I will write in the procedures that it is the document user's responsibility to verify if the document is current before use. I don't know if it will stop the risk of having obsolete documents floating around though.
It sounds like you have a problem with your training, more than you do with your people.

Even though it is virtually impossible not to have any documents, just to get away from this, some of our people would tell me, 'well, I don't have any documents'. :lmao:
Shoot, that is what I forgot, work instructions for the CEO and VP of the corporation (my boss)! :rolleyes: I knew I was missing something. Here is the most important thing anyone will tell you today: Not every person has to have a work instruction for his JOB. There may be tasks within the job, but you don't have to detail how to do the entire job...if the person is qualified and compentent.

The Plant Manager wants to stamp the blueprint for moving the production line as "For Reference Only". :frust:
Are you moving the line (what do you mean moving the line? picking it up and relocating it?) Does the plan matter once the move is completed? I myself, I'd probably control it, but as I said in an earlier post, marking for reference only is controlling it. Blueprints may or may not affect your product, only you can decide. Actually, only the management team can decide.
 
#14
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

There are no loopholes for document control, including calling something a "reference document." All documents are for reference purposes - we refer to them for information. The ISO 9000, 14001, 18001, 13485 standards require all management system documents both internally and externally originated to be controlled so that everyone knows the status of the information they are looking it - current or obsolete.

Marking something "Reference Only," or even "obsolete" does not exempt it from the standard's document control requirements. If you are concerned about difficulties controlling all your documents, look at the complexity of your control methods. It is easy to create your own pitfalls and red tape by playing document control games. The standard has very simple requirements for demonstrating any document is controlled: an identifier (name, number, or combination) and a revision level. Any other markings are above and beyond the standard requirements for demonstrating control and add only complexity without increasing control. It is also helpful to remember that it is the responsibility of the document user to verify the document is current prior to use. :read:
How sweet is that? What an excellent post which gets to the fundamentals of effective document control. Thanks!
 
G

global citizen

#15
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

There are no loopholes for document control, including calling something a "reference document." All documents are for reference purposes - we refer to them for information. The ISO 9000, 14001, 18001, 13485 standards require all management system documents both internally and externally originated to be controlled so that everyone knows the status of the information they are looking it - current or obsolete.

Marking something "Reference Only," or even "obsolete" does not exempt it from the standard's document control requirements. If you are concerned about difficulties controlling all your documents, look at the complexity of your control methods. It is easy to create your own pitfalls and red tape by playing document control games. The standard has very simple requirements for demonstrating any document is controlled: an identifier (name, number, or combination) and a revision level. Any other markings are above and beyond the standard requirements for demonstrating control and add only complexity without increasing control. It is also helpful to remember that it is the responsibility of the document user to verify the document is current prior to use. :read:

Yea, I like this one. :)
 
#16
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

Actually, ISO does answer this, in a way.

When referring to what documents need to be controlled, 4.2.1d) states; “ documents needed by the organization to ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes.” So, whether a company document needs to be controlled is based on how it is used. A “For Reference Only” document tells me that I can remove the document and the process will not suffer in any way.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#17
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

Actually, ISO does answer this, in a way.

When referring to what documents need to be controlled, 4.2.1d) states; “ documents needed by the organization to ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes.” So, whether a company document needs to be controlled is based on how it is used. A “For Reference Only” document tells me that I can remove the document and the process will not suffer in any way.
There's a simpler, common sense principle:

"When you use it, control it."

Nobody has been able to adequately explain "for reference only" to me.

Stijloor.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#19
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

FWIW the use of "reference only" is generally when a document is superseded but the old edition is marked up. Just in case people want to go back to look at "what we used to do."

Typical uses of this form of control (and note it doesn't mean documents don't have to be controlled as they are now a record) are for superseded specifications and standards (whether in house or national / international).
 
H

hazrat71

#20
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

Actually, ISO does answer this, in a way.

When referring to what documents need to be controlled, 4.2.1d) states; “ documents needed by the organization to ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes.” So, whether a company document needs to be controlled is based on how it is used. A “For Reference Only” document tells me that I can remove the document and the process will not suffer in any way.
The standard is saying if you use a document, you need to control it. If a document is or has the potential to be used, it contains "useful" information, so that information must be accurate, authorized and current. Sure, you don't need to control documents with inaccurate, unauthorized, obsolete and useless information, but if such documents exist, you are certainly not allowed to make them available for use in your management system - even if you call them "reference" documents.

The Plant Manager wants to stamp the blueprint for moving the production line as "For Reference Only".
By the way, the word "planning" cited in 4.2.1d up above would indicate that the blueprints are definitely a type of document requiring control.

New mantra: "No loopholes in document control.":2cents:
 
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