Stamping Documents that are not being controlled with "For Reference Only"

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#21
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

By the way, the word "planning" cited in 4.2.1d up above would indicate that the blueprints are definitely a type of document requiring control.
Yes. good point.

(but does the document need to be controlled after the move is completed?) it will depend on the situation. It may not even need to be controlled by the organization at all if there is a contractor performing the work. but, there are far more serious problems here than one blueprint. imho
 
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hazrat71

#22
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

FWIW the use of "reference only" is generally when a document is superseded but the old edition is marked up. Just in case people want to go back to look at "what we used to do."
The standard identifies those documents as "obsolete." Since the term "obsolete" is not specially defined in the standard, we use a common dictionary meaning, and Merriam-Webster defines "obsolete" as "no longer in use or no longer useful."

The standard requires you to prevent the unintended use of obsolete documents. If you retain them for any purpose (including future intended use), they must be suitably identified. Marking it "reference" is certainly a way to identify it, but IMHO seems much less obvious than just marking it "obsolete."

Marking a document obsolete does not prevent it from being used, just from being mistaken as current. Like the MW definition, the standard recognizes that, just because something is no longer used, doesn't mean it cannot still be "useful," in which case it needs to be controlled because it could be used - usually for reference (IOW comparison) purposes.

An organization may have a general understanding about what "reference" means based on efforts to define it that way, but it sort of goes against the grain: "reference" is not defined, addressed or sanctioned in any part of the standard, its annexes or guidance documents, while the concept of an "obsolete" document is. Also, MW does not provide any definition that would clearly endorse using "reference" to identify information as inaccurate or outdated, actually, some definitions indicate the word may imply just the opposite.

(but does the document need to be controlled after the move is completed?) it will depend on the situation
I agree that it would be up to the organization to determine if it was valuable to keep obsolete versions of the blueprint, but if they did, they would still need to control them per the requirements for obsolete documents. This is so everyone will know what is current and what is not, even when all those originally involved have left to go on to bigger and better things, including that great management system in the sky. :tg:

It may not even need to be controlled by the organization at all if there is a contractor performing the work.
Even if it is a contractor's document, it still needs to be controlled. It certainly meets the definition of a document that requires controlled per 4.2.1d and the standard requires documents of external origin to be suitably identified and their distribution to be controlled.

If you mean that a contractor does not need have access to a controlled document: If the contractor's work can impact the management system, they need to have access to the same accurate, authorized and current information that an employee does, so they would need to be referring to a controlled document.

BTW, I don't ever think I have seen a blueprint that didn't have a date on it and a form of identification, which would be an acceptable way to demonstrate control (if the document is current).
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#23
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I'm thinking about putting "for reference only" on all of my gages so I don't have to calibrate them. Is that OK?
:sarcasm:
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#24
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

The standard identifies those documents as "obsolete." Since the term "obsolete" is not specially defined in the standard, we use a common dictionary meaning, and Merriam-Webster defines "obsolete" as "no longer in use or no longer useful."
Again their are many (standard?) definitions of the words used in ISO 9001. I am not going to argue with this one as it is irrelevant. If a document is obsolete (perhaps by being superseded ;)) the organization's document control procedure has to say what to do with it. It can say mark it "obsolete", "for reference only" or "Ethel" - it doesn't matter. So long as people in the organization know not to use it as current.

The standard requires you to prevent the unintended use of obsolete documents. If you retain them for any purpose (including future intended use), they must be suitably identified. Marking it "reference" is certainly a way to identify it, but IMHO seems much less obvious than just marking it "obsolete."
So your document control procedure will say that. Many that I have seen say something different - each to their own.

Marking a document obsolete does not prevent it from being used, just from being mistaken as current. Like the MW definition, the standard recognizes that, just because something is no longer used, doesn't mean it cannot still be "useful," in which case it needs to be controlled because it could be used - usually for reference (IOW comparison) purposes.
Agreed.

An organization may have a general understanding about what "reference" means based on efforts to define it that way, but it sort of goes against the grain: "reference" is not defined, addressed or sanctioned in any part of the standard, its annexes or guidance documents, while the concept of an "obsolete" document is. Also, MW does not provide any definition that would clearly endorse using "reference" to identify information as inaccurate or outdated, actually, some definitions indicate the word may imply just the opposite.
Again that is what the company's procedure is for. Believe it or not the people who write standards don't know everything. Some even add in new definitions (e.g. for the current hot potato "competence") that don't exist anywhere else but suit the needs of the people writing the standard. It's just when the new definition adds confusion that I get annoyed! :mad:

I agree that it would be up to the organization to determine if it was valuable to keep obsolete versions of the blueprint, but if they did, they would still need to control them per the requirements for obsolete documents. This is so everyone will know what is current and what is not, even when all those originally involved have left to go on to bigger and better things, including that great management system in the sky. :tg:
Agreed again. My personal record is visiting a company that had blueprints over 100 years old! :mg:

I'm thinking about putting "for reference only" on all of my gages so I don't have to calibrate them. Is that OK?
:sarcasm:
I know what you mean. Plenty of people try - normally by marking them "Indication Only" - any auditor worth their salt will check the actual usage.
 
P

Pudge 72

#25
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I find "For Refrence Only" to be an extremely useful method in an electronic world. For instance, if I scan in an informational packet that contains a current master print, I use a .PDF stamp and put "For Reference Only" on all the documentation. Why, because none of them are Obsolete and they are going to be retained in electronic format until, well forever. Odds are that at some point, maybe soon, maybe not, the print in the packet will be obsolete. Now, I have several options here, I could create some elaborate procedure with a lot of supporting work instructions and documentation that justifies my job for several months and probably even claim that I need to hire someone for this wondeful waste of time to monitor and make sure that the print never escapes and gets stamped Obsolete when the time comes. Or, I can do what I have been trained to do - assess the risk of the situation. As I have been using this method for the last several years with no instances, occurences, excursions or otherwise, I would say the risk is pretty low. If it becomes a problem, I reevaluate and move on. Scanning in current documents is a tremendous time savings and space saver. It is also an excellent method of viewing past history. Just like anything though, we can make more out of it than it really needs to be and turn it into a value-drag as I like to call it. I understand the risk of using a document that is outdated, but based on my savings, I'll take the chance.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#26
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I find "For Refrence Only" to be an extremely useful method in an electronic world. For instance, if I scan in an informational packet that contains a current master print, I use a .PDF stamp and put "For Reference Only" on all the documentation. Why, because none of them are Obsolete and they are going to be retained in electronic format until, well forever. Odds are that at some point, maybe soon, maybe not, the print in the packet will be obsolete. Now, I have several options here, I could create some elaborate procedure with a lot of supporting work instructions and documentation that justifies my job for several months and probably even claim that I need to hire someone for this wondeful waste of time to monitor and make sure that the print never escapes and gets stamped Obsolete when the time comes. Or, I can do what I have been trained to do - assess the risk of the situation. As I have been using this method for the last several years with no instances, occurences, excursions or otherwise, I would say the risk is pretty low. If it becomes a problem, I reevaluate and move on. Scanning in current documents is a tremendous time savings and space saver. It is also an excellent method of viewing past history. Just like anything though, we can make more out of it than it really needs to be and turn it into a value-drag as I like to call it. I understand the risk of using a document that is outdated, but based on my savings, I'll take the chance.
the point is not "what works for me" but "what is generally accepted practice in well-run organizations throughout the world."
 
P

Pudge 72

#27
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

Wes - completely agree. However, my point was that I believe that as you,Jim, Bev and others have taught me - you have to think out of the box sometimes to be successful. You are correct, technically, if the print is Obsolete, it needs to be stamped Obsolete. And we need a procedure, and we need work instructions, and we need training. Unfortunately, we also need to be competetive. If we think of this in the culture of lean, and we utilize our quality knowledge as I eluded to with Risk based assessment, then, if there is minimal risk regardless of what is a common practice - we can show that there are alternatives that are safe and do not expose our customers to unecessary risk - which, to me is the one of the most value added concepts that I can promote in my organization.
I probably follow Jim's philiosophies the closest of all of my friends here on the Cove. In this instance, I would like to believe that while yes it may be unconventional, it acutally can work for everyone in their own way using due diligence and common sense instead of just reading the standard verbatum and saying, nope - has to be obsoleted, no other solution.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#28
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I find "For Refrence Only" to be an extremely useful method in an electronic world. For instance, if I scan in an informational packet that contains a current master print, I use a .PDF stamp and put "For Reference Only" on all the documentation. Why, because none of them are Obsolete and they are going to be retained in electronic format until, well forever. Odds are that at some point, maybe soon, maybe not, the print in the packet will be obsolete. Now, I have several options here, I could create some elaborate procedure with a lot of supporting work instructions and documentation that justifies my job for several months and probably even claim that I need to hire someone for this wondeful waste of time to monitor and make sure that the print never escapes and gets stamped Obsolete when the time comes. Or, I can do what I have been trained to do - assess the risk of the situation. As I have been using this method for the last several years with no instances, occurences, excursions or otherwise, I would say the risk is pretty low. If it becomes a problem, I reevaluate and move on. Scanning in current documents is a tremendous time savings and space saver. It is also an excellent method of viewing past history. Just like anything though, we can make more out of it than it really needs to be and turn it into a value-drag as I like to call it. I understand the risk of using a document that is outdated, but based on my savings, I'll take the chance.
Scanning them into pdf and using them electronically is a great idea. However, if people are using printed copies, either you or they still need to control them to make sure they are accurate at the time they are being used.

So, the concept of scanning is a great idea, but has nothing to do with "controlled" or "reference." You need to control most docs, but how you control and the level of control is the variable.
 
J

janak

#29
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

We are using stamps "controlled document" and also "for reference only". The difference is that a document with stamp "for reference only" serves for information and the user has to check its validity. E.g. we use reference copies during internal audits. Releasing of controlled documents is more complicated.

Hope it helps you a little bit
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#30
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

We are using stamps "controlled document" and also "for reference only". The difference is that a document with stamp "for reference only" serves for information and the user has to check its validity. E.g. we use reference copies during internal audits. Releasing of controlled documents is more complicated.

Hope it helps you a little bit
And is this defined in the Organization's Document Control Procedure?
 
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