Stamping Documents that are not being controlled with "For Reference Only"

#31
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

We are using stamps "controlled document" and also "for reference only". The difference is that a document with stamp "for reference only" serves for information and the user has to check its validity. E.g. we use reference copies during internal audits. Releasing of controlled documents is more complicated.

Hope it helps you a little bit
Welcome to the Cove! You might be interested to read back over this thread about the use of 'for reference' documents. It's not unusual to do this, however, one point of disscusion is that people don't check on the document's validity, especially if it can't be done easily/readily. Now, it's possible to be registered to ISO 9000 etc with such as system, but can you and your management be really confident that everyone does this check before they use a document? If not, then the system isn't working. Do your internal audits check this, for example?

If releasing a 'controlled' document is complex/complicated, you might want to look into that. Document control doesn't have to be that way......

The regular Cove members welcome you
 
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Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#32
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

...but can you and your management be really confident that everyone does this check before they use a document...?
That would have been my next question (from very recent experience).

Thanks.

:topic: I really hate to think like an Auditor, it gets me in trouble sometimes
 

sinned

Registered Visitor
#33
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

The general "meaning" of doc with "For reference only" stamp are:
i) when you are the one who receive the doc: DANGEROUS! Do not follow it completely for work!
ii) when you are the one who put the stamp and pass it out: I WARN YOU ALREADY! You are wholely responsible for the consequence of using the doc!
 
#34
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

The general "meaning" of doc with "For reference only" stamp are:
i) when you are the one who receive the doc: DANGEROUS! Do not follow it completely for work!
ii) when you are the one who put the stamp and pass it out: I WARN YOU ALREADY! You are wholely responsible for the consequence of using the doc!
In principle, this is a good thought. In actual practice, however, it isn't true in many cases.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#35
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I have heard and read about documents that are not being controlled but are stamped ‘For Reference Only’. Now, some of our guys just want to stamp their documents with it just so they won’t have to control them. When can we use this? Does ISO even allow this? I guess my confusion with this is that if you are using it for reference, then it means you need the data on it. If you need the data on it, then you need to have the latest.

How does this work? Thank you!:D

The requirements specifically state "Unintended use", not intentional use. 99%of the time the "For Reference Only" is nothing but horsefritters:horse:

If documents must be referred to, the use is then intentional and they must be controlled.....
 
F

Frank Oros

#37
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

I have heard and read about documents that are not being controlled but are stamped ‘For Reference Only’. Now, some of our guys just want to stamp their documents with it just so they won’t have to control them. When can we use this? Does ISO even allow this? I guess my confusion with this is that if you are using it for reference, then it means you need the data on it. If you need the data on it, then you need to have the latest.

How does this work? Thank you!:D
You must always be able to illustrate strategic document control, whether by manual or electronic means. The issue with the "for reference only" designations is that the document being identified in this manner becomes immediately obsolete, in favor of the master document that may be stored somewhere else. One way to get around this, is to electronically apply a header/footer template to your documents that states "uncontrolled if printed," and " mm/dd/yyyy", which only shows up when someone downloads and prints the document from your active files. This will place an immediate "marker" on the document, that will allow an auditor to compare the one in use to the one on file, and determine very quickly whether the user has the latest version. This process also assists the user in quickly determining their document status. Ultimately, you should have a procedure or work instruction that direct each user to confirm the validity of their reference documents on a daily or shift-by-shift basis. In some environments, all such documentation is available electronically from a master file, so the entire process is moot, but in most cases document discipline must be enforced thru involuntary identification, such as the template described above.
As an auditor, I would not fault a document control system that had a procedure directing individuals to confirm document validity, and an involuntary "stamping" system that identfies each document when printed.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#38
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

You must always be able to illustrate strategic document control, whether by manual or electronic means. The issue with the "for reference only" designations is that the document being identified in this manner becomes immediately obsolete, in favor of the master document that may be stored somewhere else. One way to get around this, is to electronically apply a header/footer template to your documents that states "uncontrolled if printed," and " mm/dd/yyyy", which only shows up when someone downloads and prints the document from your active files. This will place an immediate "marker" on the document, that will allow an auditor to compare the one in use to the one on file, and determine very quickly whether the user has the latest version. This process also assists the user in quickly determining their document status. Ultimately, you should have a procedure or work instruction that direct each user to confirm the validity of their reference documents on a daily or shift-by-shift basis. In some environments, all such documentation is available electronically from a master file, so the entire process is moot, but in most cases document discipline must be enforced thru involuntary identification, such as the template described above.
As an auditor, I would not fault a document control system that had a procedure directing individuals to confirm document validity, and an involuntary "stamping" system that identfies each document when printed.
All well and good. Personally, I get some severe twinges when folks say "must" about items which are really subjective. In my opinion, many folks within organizations are still operating with the mindset of "quality police" whose opinion is "LAW!" In my ideal [Deming-inspired] world, everyone in the organization is a willing and eager participant in a System of Profound Knowledge throughout the organization. In this SoPK, the managers and employees all know and understand the big picture and how their individual inputs contribute and interact to form that big picture. Even more, they continually look for and implement ways to improve the efficiency and reduce nonconformances within the system.

Merely saying "must" without putting the entire system in perspective can lead to misunderstanding and subsequent dismissal of the importance and urgency of the "must," especially when the "must" is accompanied by an imperfect definition and imperfect understanding of what "control" really means in a particular organization setting.

In fact, there are SOME organizations where the need for control is equaled or exceeded by the need for security and secrecy of a document for national security or trade secret purposes. In many more situations, however, the primary object of "control" is merely what is necessary to prevent an obsolete document from being used to make a product or provide a service which is subsequently delivered to a customer where it does not meet current requirements. It may not be an elegant solution, nor the most efficient, but if the nonconforming product or service is prevented from reaching the customer AFTER production with an obsolete document, then "some" part of the "process control" was able to backstop the flawed document control.

As I see it, the primary consideration in "control" is to prevent the customer from receiving nonconforming goods and services. The secondary consideration is to do so efficiently in terms of lowest cost in cash and effort, Certainly, many of the "mistake proofing" hints put forward in this thread to prevent obsolete documents from being used to produce nonconforming goods and services are efficient and helpful to the organization, but they are not exactly "musts" in terms of being the ONLY way to accomplish the end goal of preventing obsolete documents from being used to produce nonconforming goods and services.
 
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#39
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

Frank - welcome to the Cove. Your thought on document controls are an interesting perspective, and I'm sure you've taken the time to read back through this excellent thread.

I am not in favor of any control system which requires people to constantly check on the validity of the document they have in their hands! As has been posted elsewhere, the idea of all and sundry running back and forth to some computer or similar to 'look up' the current version of a print, procedure or work instruction is highly unproductive.

I'm not sure where you work, but most businesses I've been in wouldn't countenance such behaviours! The purpose, surely, of an effective control system is to give the user the correct document at the correct time, to put it in their hands, so to speak.

'Checking' is like a crime - either on the product or for a document revision! So is annotating documents as 'Uncontrolled if printed' etc. And as for doing such things to make it easy for an auditor to verify 'control' - Your CB auditor 'buys' that kind of thing? Really?

What's being proposed here, is equivalent to us Covers calling on the ISO folks to see if 9001 has been updated, every time we pick it up to use it. They don't publish any standards with any annotation with respect to its control status, do they? There are many great examples of document control all around us, yet we try to make this stuff waaaay to complex, IMHO.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#40
Re: Stamping Documents with ‘For Reference Only’

You must always be able to illustrate strategic document control, whether by manual or electronic means. The issue with the "for reference only" designations is that the document being identified in this manner becomes immediately obsolete, in favor of the master document that may be stored somewhere else. One way to get around this, is to electronically apply a header/footer template to your documents that states "uncontrolled if printed," and " mm/dd/yyyy", which only shows up when someone downloads and prints the document from your active files. This will place an immediate "marker" on the document, that will allow an auditor to compare the one in use to the one on file, and determine very quickly whether the user has the latest version. This process also assists the user in quickly determining their document status. Ultimately, you should have a procedure or work instruction that direct each user to confirm the validity of their reference documents on a daily or shift-by-shift basis. In some environments, all such documentation is available electronically from a master file, so the entire process is moot, but in most cases document discipline must be enforced thru involuntary identification, such as the template described above.
As an auditor, I would not fault a document control system that had a procedure directing individuals to confirm document validity, and an involuntary "stamping" system that identfies each document when printed.

As an auditor, I would have a problem with it...because it just won't work! Why not just do what the standard requires, control the docs and data, and stop with all the games? Do you really think people are going to verify docs before use?
 
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