Standard for TS 16949 process audits?

C

Charles Corn

#1
Hi everyone,

Recently, during a 2nd party audit (ISO/TS 16949:2002 systems audit), the auditor stated that our internal audit program couldn't utilize the TS specification for our process audits and rather that process audits had to be conducted 'versus the process using the process itself as a basis for the audit'.

Am I totally out to lunch on this? I know that the TS specification is designed for systems, but why can't the elements be used for a process audit?

Thanks,

CC
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
T

TedCambron

#2
systems audit

What do you mean, systems audit? I'm new here.
What do you mean, conducted 'versus the process using the process itself as a basis for the audit'? Are you quoting this correctly?
 
R

ralphsulser

#3
Reference TS16949 page 27,
8.2.2.1 Quality management systems audit

8.2.2.2 Manufacturing process audit

8.2.2.3 Product audit

I don't understand what your 2nd party auditor was talking about, makes no sense.
We just recently passed a 3rd party conformance audit, and had evidence of all 3 types of audits.
 
K

Kevin H

#4
I agree with Ralph that 3 types of audits are called for by TS. Further, it is allowed to combine the audits so that one audit in your system ccould be both a management system audit and a process audit, or a process audit and a product audit. You need to clearly identify in the audit scope the type of audit/audit combination being performed.

Process audits should concentrate on the manufacturing process - what are the inuts, what are you doing in the process, how do you control them, what is the ouput, etc. You'll should touch on more than one "element" during a process audit, such as control of non-conforming/suspect material, training, document control, measuring equipment, continual improvement, corrective & preventive actions, ...
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#5
IMO there is continuously misunderstandings here.
The audits, including system audits, should all be performed in a process manner, that means according to the definitions of the process for example in the turtle diagram.
The process audit in 8.2.2.2 is the audit of the manufacturing process which should also be in a process manner.
As I see it the main requirement of 8.2.2.2 is each manufacturing process, according to QS etc. it was possible to skip some manufacturing processes and still conform.
The clauses of the standard still exist what ever you audit and the requirements are still there
When you audit a manufacturing process you will look for on the job training no matter what, if you call it 6.2.2.3 or OJT is irrelevant
 
C

Charles Corn

#6
Just to clarify my question a little bit (as it seems that I perhaps didn;t explain it properly): The auditor challenged that I had conducted process audits using TS/ISO 16949, he tried to tell me that I couldn't use TS to do a process audit and that TS was ONLY for systems auditing!

Clearly this is some definition of auditing that I am hitherto unfamiliar with!

Thank you all for weighing in on this, I walked away from that audit session feeling dumbfounded. :thanx:
 
R

ralphsulser

#7
Charles Corn said:
Just to clarify my question a little bit (as it seems that I perhaps didn;t explain it properly): The auditor challenged that I had conducted process audits using TS/ISO 16949, he tried to tell me that I couldn't use TS to do a process audit and that TS was ONLY for systems auditing!

Clearly this is some definition of auditing that I am hitherto unfamiliar with!

Thank you all for weighing in on this, I walked away from that audit session feeling dumbfounded. :thanx:
Well, I can understand why you felt bumbfounded...I think you should find out the auditors training and competency. I think he missed something.
If you are going for TS, you better be auditing your manufacturing processes.
 
T

TedCambron

#8
A word from the wise.

Howard Atkins said:
IMO there is continuously misunderstandings here.
The audits, including system audits, should all be performed in a process manner, that means according to the definitions of the process for example in the turtle diagram.
The process audit in 8.2.2.2 is the audit of the manufacturing process which should also be in a process manner.
As I see it the main requirement of 8.2.2.2 is each manufacturing process, according to QS etc. it was possible to skip some manufacturing processes and still conform.
The clauses of the standard still exist what ever you audit and the requirements are still there
When you audit a manufacturing process you will look for on the job training no matter what, if you call it 6.2.2.3 or OJT is irrelevant
That makes sense.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J Standard Work Instruction Languages (IATF 16949 8.5.1.2) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
dubrizo Initial Impressions of Newly Released IATF 16949 Standard IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 43
S Quality Manual and ISO TS 16949 Standard IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
D Internal Audit Checklist for the latest ISO/TS 16949 standard IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
T Is TS 16949 a "Wall to Wall" standard? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Q Inquire TS 16949 standard - Clause 7.5.1.3 Verification of 'Job Set-Up' IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
K Is there an overall standard for calibration of items used in TS 16949 Certified Co. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
U TS 16949 - Standard KPI Measurement Time Scale Requirement(s) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
I Where in the TS 16949 standard is Yearly PPAP Re-Validation Required IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
B ISO/TS16949:2009 Standard Should be ISO 16949:2009? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
B Why do a Gage R&R more than once? TS 16949 standard for GR&R Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
B Does TS 16949 standard update by next year? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
B Does the ISO/TS 16949 standard actually require the title "QUALITY POLICY" to be used Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 4
C Corrective action in control plan per Annex A of ISO/ TS 16949: 2002 standard FMEA and Control Plans 4
P TS 16949 AIAG books needed for learning the requirements of the standard IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
S ISO 9001 Standard vs. Technical specification (ISO/TS 16949) - Differences? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
M Where can I buy (purchase) copies of the ISO/TS 16949:2002 Standard fast? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Q ISO/TS 16949 - The Quality Standard for the Automotive Industry IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
S Is "0 Nonconformities" standard in a TS 16949 audit? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
S Where can I buy the TS 16949 standard? The AIAG is expensive! IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
A standard ISO/TS 16949 -2002 Guidance supplement? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
R TS 16949 becoming automotive standard of choice IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 31
P Pooled Standard Error - Minitab Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 0
SABRINA DJILALI SAIAH Implementation of the ISAS-MEDIA 9001 standard in a TV channel ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
Sidney Vianna Interesting Discussion Should ISO 9004 be changed from a guidance standard to a requirements standard? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
B European Harmonized vs IEC standard IEC 62366 - Medical Device Usability Engineering 2
Moumen H Variations between ASTM A29 Standard for steel bars and Mill test certificates specs Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
D Which ISO Standard to purchase? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 7
K IEC 60601-1:2005/AMD2:2020, Why this standard version is 3.0? IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 2
C Standard -Machinist Handbook Customer Complaints 4
N EN 813, EN 12277, EN 1497 - Testing some harness prototypes to an EN standard Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 0
R Remote Audits for ISO 9001 (or any other standard) General Auditing Discussions 31
S Which department should prepare the control plan? could you show me a standard regarding to this matter. FMEA and Control Plans 17
Y Auditory alarm standard IEC 60601-1-8 Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 0
M Does the ISO 9001:2015 standard require a disaster recovery plan or emergency response plan ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
S Shore A hardness Tester Acceptance Criteria Standard Elsmar Cove Forum Suggestions, Complaints, Problems and Bug Reports 2
Sidney Vianna What ISO Standard (under the TC 176) supports the UN Sustainable Development Goal #10? ASQ, ANAB, UKAS, IAF, IRCA, Exemplar Global and Related Organizations 11
John Broomfield Vote - Should ISO9004 Become a Requirements Standard? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
Q EN ISO 13485:2016/AC:2018 - AC:2018 being stated in the applicable harmonized standard listing Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 1
J SAE J1739 standard IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
Marcel DS LV 123 - BMW, AUDI, Mercedes Standard VDA Standards - Germany's Automotive Standards 1
F Standard Calibration Procedures: Recommended Practice ISO 17025 related Discussions 0
M FDA News FDA Releases Draft Guidance Clarifying Application of ISO 10993-1 Biocompatibility Standard Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 0
Y UL 1998 Standard: software classes Software Quality Assurance 0
G What to do with correction factors overlooked by an accredited standard (6.4.11)? ISO 17025 related Discussions 5
G Copy of withdrawn ISO 9001:1994 Quality Management Standard ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
Anonymous16-2 SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) Numbering Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 7
Ed Panek Compliance with Standards? When a standard is updated/revised CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 3
Skooma Deburring and Tolerances - Is there a Standard for deburring or removing material? Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
B Purchasing AS9100D Standard in Japanese AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2

Similar threads

Top Bottom