Definition Statement of Fact - Considered Objective Evidence?

K

Kathryn L. Mullins

#1
The Director of Quality at Corporation ABC was taught, by the registrar, that statements of fact are considered objective evidence. At Corporation ABC, we rely heavily on verbal communications and undocumented delivery of both inputs and outputs for many of our work processes. So, there are many “statements of fact” involved when we conduct our audits. As an auditor, I may want to verify what I have learned in a statement of fact, either by direct observation of work, examination of related records, or obtaining statements from other participants of the process in question.

I ask the “experts’, aren’t statements of fact acceptable as objective evidence?
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Re: Are "statements of fact" considered objective evidence?

The Director of Quality at Corporation ABC was taught, by the registrar, that statements of fact are considered objective evidence. At Corporation ABC, we rely heavily on verbal communications and undocumented delivery of both inputs and outputs for many of our work processes. So, there are many “statements of fact” involved when we conduct our audits. As an auditor, I may want to verify what I have learned in a statement of fact, either by direct observation of work, examination of related records, or obtaining statements from other participants of the process in question.

I ask the “experts’, aren’t statements of fact acceptable as objective evidence?
Hello Kathryn,

Welcome to The Cove Forums! :bigwave: :bigwave:

Let's look at the following definition....

ISO 9000:2005, Clause 3.9.4 audit evidence, states:

records, statements of fact or other information which are relevant to the audit criteria and verifiable.

(Emphasis mine...)

Stijloor.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
Re: Are "statements of fact" considered objective evidence?

My criteria for acceptance of the sort of data you describe are:

  1. Does the organization quality plan say in writing these are valid inputs?
  2. Do responsible folks make a written record of having received such input and the summary of its content?
  3. Is the written record maintained for ready retrieval, reference, and validation via an audit trail if required at some future time?
 
#5
In most auditor training, I've seen that statements of fact, taken from people who are responsible for a process etc. can be taken as objective evidence.

However, I would strongly caution using that statement in any reported non-conformance resulting from the audit.

If you do use it, I suggest that you repeat the following at the opening meeting.........."You have the right to remain silent. If you give up that right, anything you say will be taken down and used against you at the closing meeting......."
 
J

joshua_sx1

#6
.........."You have the right to remain silent. If you give up that right, anything you say will be taken down and used against you at the closing meeting......."
He he he… it would be a nicer statement with “handcuff”… anyway, I agree with AndyN that the statement of facts, if you are going to make this as an objective evidence, should be taken from the persons who are having authority on the process involved… and yet, still the best approach is to try to avoid using this as an objective evidence to lessen the “debating” process… (you see how the typical day in court bombarding with accusations and allegations trying to prove or disapprove one’s another statement of facts… and definitely, you don’t want your closing meeting to be like one)…
 

Doug Tropf

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
The Director of Quality at Corporation ABC was taught, by the registrar, that statements of fact are considered objective evidence. At Corporation ABC, we rely heavily on verbal communications and undocumented delivery of both inputs and outputs for many of our work processes. So, there are many “statements of fact” involved when we conduct our audits. As an auditor, I may want to verify what I have learned in a statement of fact, either by direct observation of work, examination of related records, or obtaining statements from other participants of the process in question.

I ask the “experts’, aren’t statements of fact acceptable as objective evidence?
I would say yes, as long as the statements are verified or confirmed by records or documents, verbal affirmations, repeat observation, measuring or testing, simulation, etc.
 
D

Doyle

#8
Kathryn,

You pose a very interesting question. It would all depend on the nature of the "statement of fact" whether or not it could be accepted as audit evidence. If the statement could readily be accepted by all reasonable men, then on the face of the statement it would be acceptable. For instance, if the auditee told me that, "observed from earth the sky appears blue", envoking the reasonable man rule, I would be inclinded to believe them based on my own observations and knowledge of the physical world. Let me put it this way. If an auditee tells me that they conduct a management review, with out hesitation, I will check the affirmitive block on an ISO 9001:2000 Audit Checklist. Because, I will accept their "statement of fact" that they do, in deed, conduct a management review. At that point in an audit I am not in a position to disput this "satement of fact", untill I determine the level of their understanding and their level of implementation for this requriement. However, having accepted this "statement of fact" based at this point on the auditees level of understanding it is my duty as an auditor to verify that the management review is conducted is such a manner as to address all of the Standard's requirments (e.g., is it performed at planned intervals, are all review inputs and outputs included, etc.).

Regarding, "statements of facts" within the context of audit evidence, I would refer you to;

ISO 9000:2005, Clause 3.9.4 Audit Evidence, states:

"records (3.7.6), statements of fact or other information (3.7.1) which are relevant to the audit criteria (3.9.3) and
verifiable."



I hope this information has been helpful. If you need additional clarification of my postion on audit evidence swing by my desk and we can discuss this at length.

Doyle

 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#9
Regarding, "statements of facts" within the context of audit evidence, I would refer you to;

ISO 9000:2005, Clause 3.9.4 Audit Evidence, states:

"records (3.7.6), statements of fact or other information (3.7.1) which are relevant to the audit criteria (3.9.3) and verifiable."
The underlined, bold, italicized word is the key. Of course records are much more verifiable than verbal statements. In some cases records are required, and in some cases they aren't.

If I ask management if they conduct management reviews, and they say that they do, I still ask to review their required records.

If I ask a buyer if they review purchase orders before they are sent out, and they say they do, there is no required record unless the company itself or contract says there must be. In these cases I should be careful in the way I ask the question. If I say to the buyer "your system requires that you review purchasing information before sending it to the supplier. Is that what you do?" I have biased the answer and may not get the real story. Instead I would ask the buyer to describe their purchasing process. If they mention the review (without prompting or mentioning the requirement), then it probably is happening. If they don't mention it, I may take another approach such as verbally reviewing their process up to a point, then say "does anything else happen before you send the PO to the supplier?" They may mention then that a review takes place. If not, I may ask point blank something like "how do you know the PO information is adequate before you send it out?" without mentioning that it's a requirement. If they say "I don't" then that's the statement of fact I've done my best to verify. Ideally I would want more than one person to to confirm if possible.

I hope this information has been helpful. If you need additional clarification of my postion on audit evidence swing by my desk and we can discuss this at length.
Do you two work together? :notme:
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#10
The Director of Quality at Corporation ABC was taught, by the registrar, that statements of fact are considered objective evidence.
Whenever I give auditor training courses I teach that the only statements of fact that can be taken as objective evidence are personal admissions of guilt! :) Everything else has to be supported by further evidence.

So if I say I have not done something then there can be no evidence that supports that statement. Therefore the statement on its own is sufficient evidence.
At Corporation ABC, we rely heavily on verbal communications and undocumented delivery of both inputs and outputs for many of our work processes. So, there are many “statements of fact” involved when we conduct our audits. As an auditor, I may want to verify what I have learned in a statement of fact, either by direct observation of work, examination of related records, or obtaining statements from other participants of the process in question.
Examples may help here. If I state I sign off orders (for example) a check of records will verify that statement (or not, as the case may be).

This does not mean that every little step in the process has to have a supporting record. The output of the process should be supported by evidence and any product or process monitoring / measuring support the statements.

I ask the “experts’, aren’t statements of fact acceptable as objective evidence?
As ever .... it depends! :D
 
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