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Summary of ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008 Changes

Randy

Randy

Super Moderator
#121
#121
Re: Summary of Changes - ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008

Qualqueen said:
I've got to disagree Paul. old copy is still valid. :mg: The old copy is now obsolete and to say you don't need the current revision in your system is leaving yourself open for a N/C don't ya think??????????
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I've never asked to see a copy of the standard unless the auditee identified it as a system document...One can have a QMS that effectively meets the requirements without referencing them at all.
 
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Q

Qualqueen

#122
#122
Re: Summary of Changes - ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008

Randy said:
I've never asked to see a copy of the standard unless the auditee identified it as a system document...One can have a QMS that effectively meets the requirements without referencing them at all.
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But what about the fact that the manual is now obsolete? Maybe it's cause when we were QS the auditor wrote me up for having an out of date PPAP manual and not having the latest rev. If this is the case then I guess we spent $$$ we didn't need to. Thanks Randy. I really enjoy your Ark. stories. My Dad and his family moved to RI when he was 2 from Little Rock. Maybe that's what saved him :lmao:
 
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Icy Mountain

Icy Mountain

Sachem
#123
#123
Re: Summary of Changes - ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008

Sidney Vianna said:
So, they should have been honest and keep the standard AS-IS and use the free Guidance Documents* to explain the clarifications. But, as you know, when you have a chance to sell millions of additional copies of your best selling product, you have to "invent" justifications of why people need to buy a copy of the document that adds NOTHING to the previous edition.
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Amen. Don't forget that I also need to pay my registrar an additional fee for a new cert.
Paul Simpson said:
Just because you are putting your system up for assessment to 9001 doesn't mean you need to buy a copy of it.
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Do you work for a registered company? I do and my auditor and my registrar disagree with you. I have 2 certification audits and 1 recertification audit under my belt and the auditor asked to see my copy of the standard at every one. They asked for multiple copies when I was registering to multiple standards. Don't even get me started on the amount of paper required if you are TS.
Qualqueen said:
The old copy is now obsolete and to say you don't need the current revision in your system is leaving yourself open for a N/C don't ya think??????????
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think. You leave yourself open to not having a valid ISO9001 cert as well.
Randy said:
I've never asked to see a copy of the standard unless the auditee identified it as a system document...One can have a QMS that effectively meets the requirements without referencing them at all.
Click to expand...
As I've said before, if all my auditors were Randy and dB, I'd have it made. We need to discuss how to write a Quality Manual without ever referencing the standard that it is intended to meet. I think it could be done but, from experience, you'd have a fight on your hands to get that by 90% of the auditors that get sent my way.
Qualqueen said:
Maybe it's cause when we were QS the auditor wrote me up for having an out of date PPAP manual and not having the latest rev.
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Exactly. You are indeed Quality Royalty.
 
Paul Simpson

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#124
#124
Re: Summary of Changes - ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008

Icy Mountain said:
Amen. Don't forget that I also need to pay my registrar an additional fee for a new cert.
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Only because your registrar chooses to charge you for issuing a certificate - many don't - they see that as part of the service they provide.

Icy Mountain said:
Do you work for a registered company? I do and my auditor and my registrar disagree with you. I have 2 certification audits and 1 recertification audit under my belt and the auditor asked to see my copy of the standard at every one. They asked for multiple copies when I was registering to multiple standards. Don't even get me started on the amount of paper required if you are TS.
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Yes, we are currently registered. I don't know if our registrar asks for the standard as I have only been here a while and have never met the auditor. This is not the point. It all comes down to the registrar you choose. I remember being required by the CB I worked for to check for the current edition of the standard (and many didn't have it) but here's the point ... there is no requirement in the standard for you to have a copy of the standard. :mg: Many registrars write it into their terms and conditions and, as has been discussed earlier, it is actually quite a good idea to have a copy. :)
Icy Mountain said:
Yeah, I think. You leave yourself open to not having a valid ISO9001 cert as well.
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Why? We seem to have confused having a good quality management system with all the documentation b******t that goes with some registrar's certification schemes.

Icy Mountain said:
As I've said before, if all my auditors were Randy and dB, I'd have it made. We need to discuss how to write a Quality Manual without ever referencing the standard that it is intended to meet. I think it could be done but, from experience, you'd have a fight on your hands to get that by 90% of the auditors that get sent my way.
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As has been seen elsewhere on the Cove. I'm not averse to challenging auditor's opinions. that is what the Cove is about! :D
 
Icy Mountain

Icy Mountain

Sachem
#125
#125
Re: Summary of Changes - ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008

Paul, it's all about efficiency and efficacy. I will choose to spend two minutes generating BS to satisfy auditors every time when the alternative is spending 2 hours arguing over nothing. ISO, third party audits, and certificates are nothing but a necessary evil. I treat them as such.
 
Q

Qualqueen

#126
#126
Re: Summary of Changes - ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008

Icy Mountain said:
Paul, it's all about efficiency and efficacy. I will choose to spend two minutes generating BS to satisfy auditors every time when the alternative is spending 2 hours arguing over nothing. ISO, third party audits, and certificates are nothing but a necessary evil. I treat them as such.
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Hey Icy Mountain,

I learned a new word today - efficacy -the capacity to produce an effect. I like it. ISO, third party audits, and certificates are nothing but a necessary evil - couldn't agree more. I think in theory it's an exellent process to keep everyone on their toes, unfortunatly that's not always the case. When it becomes more paperwork to answer the ncs taking away from just a good visual inspection, something's wrong with the picture.
 
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Icy Mountain

Icy Mountain

Sachem
#127
#127
Re: Summary of Changes - ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008

I have liked "efficacy" ever since I learned it. It's one of those words that lots of people don't know but there is just no other word combination that makes the intended point. Another good definition is: "Efficacy refers to the extent to which an intervention produces a beneficial result under ideal conditions." I like to think about it as the efficiency of obtaining the effectiveness. In this situation, the desired effect is that I get a certificate that says ISO9001:2008. How efficiently I do so is the point, not whether what I do is right or wrong.

Now excuse me please, I need to go order a copy of ISO/TS16949:2009 and waste an additional $75.
 
Stijloor

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#128
#128
Re: Summary of Changes - ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008

Icy Mountain said:
I have liked "efficacy" ever since I learned it. It's one of those words that lots of people don't know but there is just no other word combination that makes the intended point. Another good definition is: "Efficacy refers to the extent to which an intervention produces a beneficial result under ideal conditions." I like to think about it as the efficiency of obtaining the effectiveness. In this situation, the desired effect is that I get a certificate that says ISO9001:2008. How efficiently I do so is the point, not whether what I do is right or wrong.

Now excuse me please, I need to go order a copy of ISO/TS16949:2009 and waste an additional $75.
Click to expand...
Icy,

You should feel honored; the $75 is an investment to keep the IATF and its sub-organizations afloat...:lol:

Stijloor.
 
Q

Qualqueen

#129
#129
Re: Summary of Changes - ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 9001:2008

Icy Mountain said:
Now excuse me please, I need to go order a copy of ISO/TS16949:2009 and waste an additional $75.
Click to expand...
:bigwave: Icy,
Don't buy a copy. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to get an auditor that won't ask you for it. :lmao:
 
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