Supplier Audit Nonconformance: What if they adverse its certified QMS?

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#1
What could be the behaviour of a second part auditor in case of Supplier audit, in case he/she notices a ncn vs Supplier QMS, already certified by a third part auditor?
To better specify: scope of a supplier audit could also be to assess its QMS before a formal qualification, but on the field the customer audit team has evidence that there is one or more lackings in the mandatory requirements of a certain standard under the scope ( e.g. ISO 9001/ISO TS), for example clear definition of 4.1 , 5.6.1 etc... requirements?
Could the supplier affirm that they have the certification in their hands and so the third part auditor was satisfied with the evidences in registration audit?
Thoughts???:bigwave:
 
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#2
You'd have to be very sure that these ncs were actually valid. There would have to be objective evidence to support them, of course, not opinion. The customer auditor should bring this to the attention of the supplier's management. Depending on the supplier/customer relationship, it might be worth discussing with the CB as a means to improve the supplier certification, but since you've not provided any concrete examples, it's a little difficult to answer fully.

Is this a hypothetical situation?
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#3
You'd have to be very sure that these ncs were actually valid. There would have to be objective evidence to support them, of course, not opinion. The customer auditor should bring this to the attention of the supplier's management. Depending on the supplier/customer relationship, it might be worth discussing with the CB as a means to improve the supplier certification, but since you've not provided any concrete examples, it's a little difficult to answer fully.

Is this a hypothetical situation?
Yes, it is.
Thank you a lot.
I would appreciate the opinions of the other Covers if they have experienced this on the field and eventually share the behaviour.
However , I think that these issues could be reported as an observation inside the customer audit report, highlighting that they could have impact on the health of supplier QMS. In addition, some evidences ( potentially controversial as per what said before) could be translated in "customer requirements" and so take care based upon agreement to make the deal.
What about?:agree1::bigwave:
 
K

keres

#4
Could the supplier affirm that they have the certification in their hands and so the third part auditor was satisfied with the evidences in registration audit?
NO! Every audit is conducted on sample basis and because of that in one case may be register a NC, and in other no!
 
#5
It's far better to use concrete examples than speculate over "what if". What is being called an 'observation' isn't considering facts, so it's inappropriate, IMHO, to describe what should happen...'sample' notwithstanding.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#6
NO! Every audit is conducted on sample basis and because of that in one case may be register a NC, and in other no!
I have understood your point, but I referred to something that it is ' "must" in CB audit ( I carried the example of 4.1 b) where eventually the sequence and the interaction of the identified QMS process is not described or available, of the 5.6.1 and 5.6.2 where not all input of ISO 9001 have been considered in the management review).
In this case I think that these kind of issues could not be considered as a "sampling" . What about?
 
#7
I have understood your point, but I referred to something that it is ' "must" in CB audit ( I carried the example of 4.1 b) where eventually the sequence and the interaction of the identified QMS process is not described or available, of the 5.6.1 and 5.6.2 where not all input of ISO 9001 have been considered in the management review).
In this case I think that these kind of issues could not be considered as a "sampling" . What about?
What is the evidence it's not described? How many management reviews didn't have all inputs? Which ones were missing?

You see, if we can ask questions like this, we can only speculate and, that brings into doubt if these are actually non-conformities - and not simply a supplier auditor's opinion...
 
A

adickerson

#8
As the customer you can make the requirements. If you want those requirments to be passing a Certification Body Audit then that is up to you. If you want to have stricter rules and actually do an onsite validation of each and every process they have related to your product then you can set that as the standard. I have seen both.

Nothing says that if you have a Certification Body Certificate you are some how shielded from further review. Furthermore, if you think the Certification Body does a poor job you can not recognize that Certification Body anymore.

All of this is going to get into trade terms, contracts, and supplier relationships but the bottom line is if the product does not meet your standards you need to review.
 
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howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#9
Supplier selection should include more criteria than just their 3rd-party certification. If they are a good supplier that meets the other criteria your organization specified, then work with them to improve. Ask for corrective action for the nonconformity you identified. If they are a poor supplier with a poor system that really doesn't meet requirements, decide if you want to continue doing business with them.
ISO 9000:2005 said:
Mutually beneficial supplier relationships
An organization and its suppliers are interdependent and a mutually beneficial relationship enhances the ability of both to create value.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#10
What is the evidence it's not described? How many management reviews didn't have all inputs? Which ones were missing?

You see, if we can ask questions like this, we can only speculate and, that brings into doubt if these are actually non-conformities - and not simply a supplier auditor's opinion...
Hi Andy.
It is only a hypothetical situation, I asked myself reflecting on ISO 19011 guidelines and on the behaviour of an auditor to check standard item as well as have feedback of real experiences if any, taking into account the examples I used. That's it.:bigwave:
 
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