Supplier data record in adequate media type

radame

Starting to get Involved
#1
Hello

One of our suppliers generate electronic data (txt files) from their CMM.

Those measurements are related CC (Critical Characteristics) in a daily basis.

This is an automotive supplier (TS based) however my company evaluate them also with VDA

They are storing all the data in the stand alone PC connected to the CMM, we recently had an issue with the supplier as we require to them all the data to evaluate if all measurements are OK or not, due a claim from our customer.

Now the supplier states they need 3 weeks to process all the TXT files to their statistic software to provide the analysis.

We are not agree on this data management as:

- This will take too much time to process the data, we need to provide also to our customer

- To keep all data in a stand alone PC without any electronic backup or being connected to a server is not reliable as this PC can be damaged.

This information must be keep all part life and 15 years after part end of life.

We know electronic media is allowed by TS16949, but there is no details on how or in which conditions this must be defined, handled, etc.

Is there any standard or norm that indicate some specific conditions to be in place for the storage of data in electronic media??

Such as mandatory back up of information or anything else.....

Any feedback will be welcome and appreciated.
Thanks
 
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Project Man

Involved In Discussions
#2
The primary requirements come from the customer and secondarily any standards. Do you currently document supplier requirements? This should be the foundation and sounds like it either needs to be revised and/or adhered to. If there are customer requirements above and beyond that, you need to flow that down to your suppliers.
You need to be clear about what you require from your suppliers.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Trusted Information Resource
#3
I agree with Project Man. You need to flow down your requirements to your supplier, just as your customer flows downs their's to you.

What your organization needs, may exceed your customer's requirements or visa versa. This will need to be clearly stated in any Purchase Orders (Legal/Binding Document) you place with the Supplier and others.

You may want your purchasing group if you have one, or yourself if you don't, to contact the supplier and see if they can reduce the lead time on the data. If they agree, then modify the Purchase Order with an amendment to specify the time agree upon.

Just my opinion.
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Leader
Admin
#4
I've been out of automotive for some time, but the base ISO requirement states: "Records shall remain legible, readily identifiable and retrievable."
Since there is no comma after identifiable, the word readily applies equally to retrievable (i.e., Records shall remain ... readily... retrievable.).

Webster defines readily as quickly and easily, or without much difficulty.

Given that, a few days would be reasonable, but not 3 weeks. Your comments about data backup are also completely correct.
 

radame

Starting to get Involved
#5
Thank you so much for your feedback, my question is more related to the media supplier is using to store all the information.

We would prefer supplier uses a server or other media where there is a back up to assure they will not loose any data.

If I understood well your comments, this must be agreed or defined in a document (contract, etc.), otherwise they are not obligated to implement something else, am I right?

Automotive norms (and other customer specific requests) state that some specific information must be available and stored due legal or liability topics in case a problem occur to assign the responsibility to the right entity.

Then I would like to know if there is something (norm, etc) which indicate such electronic media must fulfill some conditions to assure data integrity.

Something like a contingency plan or something else.


Thanks
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Leader
Admin
#6
This gets back to the requirement that records must remain legible. This applies to electronic media. Given that hard drives can fail with distressing regularity, it is common practice in all sectors to routinely back up electronic media on a daily basis. Even servers are backed up at regular intervals.

This supplier cannot justify the failure to back this computer up.
 

radame

Starting to get Involved
#7
Given that, a few days would be reasonable, but not 3 weeks. Your comments about data backup are also completely correct.
This is exactly my concern, they are using an stand alone PC (not connected to any network) to store all the historical information.

They will loose all data if this computer breaks down and this information is very important.

I remember, for example, IT guys in the company must have a back up for all company data to avoid data loose and there are some rules based on international standards indicating how the data management must be to avoid this.

Indeed TS indicate what you mention but there is certain ambiguity on how data must be managed, either hard copy or electronically

And such detail for sure is not indicated in a contract or PPAP.
 
#8
It is really a simple matter to back up the data on a flashdrive, although in this case it would have to be done manually, ideally by rotating a few different flashdrives. If it is bluetooth or wifi capable it could also sync its files automatically with another computer (even yours). There is no economic excuse not to be able to maintain a backup. As for retrieving information in a text file format, this should not be that difficult either, as the text output could be run through filters to make searches.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
#9
The supplier is only required to do what they have agreed to in your purchase order or other legal agreement. If you never specified requirements for how to back up data or when to provide statistics, then you need to negotiate it and add it to your agreement.

If they are unwilling or unable to provide the data you want in the time you want, you may ask them to send you the raw data and you can do the statistical analysis yourself.
 

radame

Starting to get Involved
#10
If they are unwilling or unable to provide the data you want in the time you want, you may ask them to send you the raw data and you can do the statistical analysis yourself.
:applause:

YES, this is the problem we have!!

This is a know bad supplier which give us many headaches and this is precisely what we request, to provide all row data.

Nevertheless they refuse this under the excuse they need to review the info before, now my organization is not trusting on them and we think they are hiding something.

We are going to supplier facility to review this on site.

This is why we wanted to find some regulation about this to know if somehow we can force supplier to improve how they are storing the data in a better way so this can be easily retrievable without any risk to manipulate the data.
 
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