Supplier Denying FOD Nonconformance

[magneto259]

I would still disagree with that quality manager. They are still responsible for packaging unless your organization specifies the exact packaging material. How are the parts handled after this cleaning step and before they are packed?

I agree as well. It calls out ASTM D-3951. Unfortunately, our source inspector doesn’t see the packaging process. They are carted away after inspection. I think this is where the contamination occurs. It’s a small facility and I think they are sitting the parts in the production area waiting to pack and ship.

 

[magneto259]

Perhaps the two organizations could agree upon an additional source inspection of the packaging for the next few orders.

I agree we need the source inspector to do that as part of their inspection but we would need to do a product verification plan at this point to adjust what they are inspecting. I was thinking of something along the same lines though.

 

[magneto259]

But you really aren't working "together", are you? Supplier says not us. Your onsite inspector says he didn't see anything. But yet your still trying to "pin" it on the supplier. How about a different tact? Work with them to monitor the parts from inspection, to packing, to shipping, to your place. It is likely nobody's "fault" but something that just isn't getting addressed during that chain of custody. Customers show us part all the time claiming we "sent them like that" when there is no freaking way we sent that part. It is very frustrating.

They claim they are immediately packaged in foam, wrapped in plastic, placed in a crate and packaging material between the individual parts. I agree we need to get our source inspector to view the entire process. We would have to create a plan to include the additional inspection steps. Its odd this lot of parts only had the FOD on one surface, all on the exact same surface. Looks like they sat in a manufacturing area for some time collecting the debris on that surface. It was a span of 4 weeks between the time the source inspector bought them off and when we received them. Its hard to work with them when they are not open to the fact that there is an issue.

 

[Golfman25]

They claim they are immediately packaged in foam, wrapped in plastic, placed in a crate and packaging material between the individual parts. I agree we need to get our source inspector to view the entire process. We would have to create a plan to include the additional inspection steps. Its odd this lot of parts only had the FOD on one surface, all on the exact same surface. Looks like they sat in a manufacturing area for some time collecting the debris on that surface. It was a span of 4 weeks between the time the source inspector bought them off and when we received them. Its hard to work with them when they are not open to the fact that there is an issue.

Likewise it hard to work with a customer when they try to pin every issue on the supplier. The QM said he cleaned and packed them. How do you know for absolute certainty they didn't sit open at your place? How do you know one of your guys isn't trying to cover his "mistake?" My point is rather than pointing fingers, let them know you need their help in identifying possible contamination opportunities. Kind of like walking thru a FMEA. There will be 2 or 3 spots at their location. And 2-3 spots at your location. Find the hole and fix the glitch. You'll catch more bees with honey, than vinegar. Good luck.

 

[Randy]

Just ask them......"Would you be willing to get on an airplane with your garbage as is when it leaves your place?" This requires on a YES or NO.

If this seems blunt, too bad, I've been on a couple aircraft that ended up having FODed junk in them and we ended up plowing dirt, banging around and holding on. Doesn't matter, fixed or rotary wing, it's not fun! Personally pi^^es me off when people blow off the seriousness of FOD especially in aviation, I've lost friends and colleagues because of it.

 

[Jen Kirley]

Lots of good comments on this.

What do your requirements say? If cleanliness is one of the requirements, then clearly the supplier still has responsibility after the inspection is done: right up to the point of leaving on the truck.

If it turns out that the source inspector should also do a product inspection, so be it: open a box just before shipment, look at a sample and check for cleanliness that meets your requirement. At this point the inspector can note the traceability and see how long the parts were staged where. The inspector can look around for how debris would land on the parts. Would they be staged near a vent, or next to a machine, etc. Can the inspector take pictures on hos phone and send them to you? Or maybe the supplier would prefer an audit. I am thinking not.

So the QM says he personally cleans and packs these? That seems to me like work for someone besides the QM. Or maybe he doesn't do this for every single lot.

I agree with @Golfman25: start with pictures, compare them to requirements, and ask for the supplier to partner with you to solve this problem so everyone can get back to what they'd prefer doing: counting money.

 

[magneto259]

Likewise it hard to work with a customer when they try to pin every issue on the supplier. The QM said he cleaned and packed them. How do you know for absolute certainty they didn't sit open at your place? How do you know one of your guys isn't trying to cover his "mistake?" My point is rather than pointing fingers, let them know you need their help in identifying possible contamination opportunities. Kind of like walking thru a FMEA. There will be 2 or 3 spots at their location. And 2-3 spots at your location. Find the hole and fix the glitch. You'll catch more bees with honey, than vinegar. Good luck.

Good morning. I totally get what you are saying. When the parts in question came in the receiving dock they don't unwrap those parts, just verify quantity in the crate. From there, it goes approximately 50 feet to our receiving inspection area. At that point our inspectors will remove the parts and start their inspection. At no extended period of time (couple hours at best) will the parts remain out in the open for any contamination to collect. It is a warehouse setting but is extremely clean. This issue was noticed as soon as the part was touched. I have been in contact with the source inspector and he said they don't take them to shipping until he leaves the facility. It could be a war of words at this point as they said they "immediately take them to shipping after inspection" versus after he leaves the building. I tired to set up a phone call but they have yet to respond. Figuring out some potential points where they could have become contaminated is pretty much what I would like to see happen but their quality manager doesn't seem to receptive to work through it.

 

[magneto259]

Just ask them......"Would you be willing to get on an airplane with your garbage as is when it leaves your place?" This requires on a YES or NO.

If this seems blunt, too bad, I've been on a couple aircraft that ended up having FODed junk in them and we ended up plowing dirt, banging around and holding on. Doesn't matter, fixed or rotary wing, it's not fun! Personally pi^^es me off when people blow off the seriousness of FOD especially in aviation, I've lost friends and colleagues because of it.

I totally agree. To some it may seem insignificant but the crud on this part will potentially damage the parts bolted onto this upstream. I have heard about the general getting hit in the head with a flashlight when he flipped the sun visor down on a helicopter. He was not amused. I have read the analysis on a crash where a speck of cleaning media clogged an oil port on the engine of a helicopter and that's what brought it down and killed everyone. So yeah, FOD is a huge deal.

 

[Golfman25]

Good morning. I totally get what you are saying. When the parts in question came in the receiving dock they don't unwrap those parts, just verify quantity in the crate. From there, it goes approximately 50 feet to our receiving inspection area. At that point our inspectors will remove the parts and start their inspection. At no extended period of time (couple hours at best) will the parts remain out in the open for any contamination to collect. It is a warehouse setting but is extremely clean. This issue was noticed as soon as the part was touched. I have been in contact with the source inspector and he said they don't take them to shipping until he leaves the facility. It could be a war of words at this point as they said they "immediately take them to shipping after inspection" versus after he leaves the building. I tired to set up a phone call but they have yet to respond. Figuring out some potential points where they could have become contaminated is pretty much what I would like to see happen but their quality manager doesn't seem to receptive to work through it.

So what is on the Parts? How do you know your guys aren’t misleading vs the supplier? Heck, if you have a guy there, why not have him get involved And follow the parts further? You may have to work up the chain if they QM isn’t responsive.

 

[magneto259]

I agree, this has been a good thread so far. This has been a valuable resource to toss ideas off of others in this role in the world.

It states on the drawing finished parts shall be free of foreign debris. Suppliers we work with generally hang their hat on the “your source inspector signed off on it” as there is nothing we can say about it now. Unfortunately, we would have to put a PVP in place for the source inspector to do an “enhanced” inspection further that what he’s doing now. I will have to further probe as to what his requirements are. I believe at the moment, it’s just the part meets the print. I was thinking the same questions you were tossing out there. I’m not sure if he can take pictures but I can look into it.

The QM said he wears multiple hats so I am just taking his word for it at this point.

We did submit pictures with the nonconformance and corrective action.

Lots of good comments on this.

What do your requirements say? If cleanliness is one of the requirements, then clearly the supplier still has responsibility after the inspection is done: right up to the point of leaving on the truck.

If it turns out that the source inspector should also do a product inspection, so be it: open a box just before shipment, look at a sample and check for cleanliness that meets your requirement. At this point the inspector can note the traceability and see how long the parts were staged where. The inspector can look around for how debris would land on the parts. Would they be staged near a vent, or next to a machine, etc. Can the inspector take pictures on hos phone and send them to you? Or maybe the supplier would prefer an audit. I am thinking not.

So the QM says he personally cleans and packs these? That seems to me like work for someone besides the QM. Or maybe he doesn't do this for every single lot.

I agree with @Golfman25: start with pictures, compare them to requirements, and ask for the supplier to partner with you to solve this problem so everyone can get back to what they'd prefer doing: counting money.