Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled

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Phiobi

#21
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

All this makes me wonder what their internal auditors have been smoking, up there in Worcester! What were they thinking when they audited this 'system' of control?

Or maybe the auditor is the same as the person spinning this line of BS (I don't mean British Standards, either)........
They can't have audited it... until the week before my audit of their system did not say they do not control drawings. They tell me that they are leaving it like this for their AS9100 audit next week as they are sure it is OK!
 
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Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#22
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

They can't have audited it... until the week before my audit of their system did not say they do not control drawings. They tell me that they are leaving it like this for their AS9100 audit next week as they are sure it is OK!
I would be willing to bet a lot of folks would like to be a fly on the wall during that audit - good test of effectiveness of third party auditor.

Of course, many organizations treat their third party auditors like mushrooms - keep them in the dark and feed them manure.;)
 
M

MIREGMGR

#23
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

they paint parts for me
Have you asked your materials sourcing team to line up another vendor-candidate to fully or partially replace the outfit in question, so that disqualifying them is a realistic option?
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#24
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

This sounds terrible at first look but it may be the supplier systems are OK but not well described!
I recently audited a supplier (they paint parts for me). Whilst reviewing their quality manual I came across the following, within Document Control:

“It is not <company name> policy to control drawings.”
Inappropriate system requirement. IF they are supplying parts to you and they are AS approved they must have a process under customer requirements (7.2) to understand what is expected of them and to make sure they are capable of meeting those requirements. Therefore they need to control drawings coming into the organisation. Somebody help me here (I'm a long way from home and my copy of ISO (latest and earlier editions) but wasn't there something about control of documents of external origin where at least the spirit lives on even if the requirement isn't explicitly documented.
A bit of history to this is that last year I audited them and found that their manual stated they did control drawings, but they were not controlling them.

This specific section of their manual was updated the WEEK before my audit this year which is all a bit fishy to me.
Anyway, I have raised this as a major non-conformance. I had an ‘off the record’ chat with my AS9100 auditor and he was resolute that it was a major non-conformance.
Your AS auditor is correct. For the reasons above (especially if they are supplying aerospace components - they need to understand exactly what is required of them and therefore they need to have control of all incoming customer requirements (including drawings).

Since I raised the issue they have asked me to cancel the NCR because...
“With reference to finding NC51, I have reviewed the control of documents clause in AS9100 and I have also spoken with our AS9100 certification body and I believe that we are compliant with clause 4.2.3 f) that you refer to. For the benefit of the persons copied on this e-mail, the clause states that a documented procedure shall be established to define the controls needed to:
f) Ensure that documents of external origin determined by the organisation to be necessary for the planning and operation of the quality management system are identified and their distribution controlled.
<company name> has such a procedure in place in which section 5 states “It is not <company name> policy to control drawings. All drawings are returned to the customer on completion of processing”.
The intention of this statement is that drawings are not controlled once the customer’s order is completed.
This is a separate issue. IF they control documents that apply to current production that is fine (under 4.2.3) they do, however, have to have a process that shows their system was in control for previous orders (under 4.2.4 - records). They don't have to keep the drawings up to date (after the order is completed) but they have to ensure they are up to date for the period they are manufacturing.
Whilst the drawing is on site it is controlled to the extent that the issue status is verified at contract review and the drawing accompanies our route card along with the customer’s purchase order.
Upon completion of the order the drawing is deemed to be no longer required and is returned with the parts.
Therefore because the drawing relating to a particular purchase order is under our control for the duration of processing, we deem to be compliant with the above clause.
This could be okay (as described above) - you need to check.
To ensure we are all clear on the interpretation of this clause, I shall also seek advice from a couple of Senior Accreditation People I know (LLoyds, DNV).”
I know this is getting a bit long winded so I will get to the point. We send them a controlled drawing, we do not, as they state in their procedure send a new drawing for each order (500 orders per year) therefore it is my opinion that they should control drawings and have evidence of it.
When you say control, what are you expecting? My expectation is that they receive an order and they check that the drawing on the order is the one they have in their possession. That is all they should have to do.
I am tempted to add a major non-conformance for their contract review procedure. They state that a drawing is required with each order and we have not sent one with the past 300 orders....
But if your drawing has not changed in the past 300 orders then they have a drawing that covers the order ... or am I missing something?

Anyway, I guess what I’m asking is am I pushing a non-issue or should I stick to my guns and escalate this NCR issue? I am doing as my supplier referenced in his email... “I shall also seek advice from a couple of Senior Accreditation People I know (LLoyds, DNV).” But I'm going one step further and asking the Cove!!
The Cove is, of course a much better source of information than any CB - but you have to evaluate the responses and keep exchanging information with us until we have got to the facts! :bigwave:
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#25
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

You need to use the OASIS feedback process TODAY, so the CB doing the audit next week can react. New OASIS database feature - Contact the CB with concerns about a supplier . Do ourselves a BIG favor and engage with their CB. Please do not hesitate. That is how the system will have a chance to work. Please engage in the process and use the tools we have.

This supplier is obviously playing games with you. Many moons ago, I had a registrant too stupid trying to play silly games like these and revised their manuals and procedures to the effect that...we will not control documents.....we will not perform design reviews....we will not calibrate our instrumentation....etc. in clear violation of the requirements from ISO 9001. They truly believed that, as long as they did what they said they were going to do, they were safe. Dumb, dumb move.

And PS, I don't know if you are going to contact LRQA, but I am here all the time....:tg:
 
T

Tony C

#26
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

Whether it is a NC or not I think it is outrageous that your supplier is not taking action to control these drawings if this is something that you are not happy with. If you were my customer and I saw you once a year I would be bending over backwards to make you happy especially if it was something that was easy to do.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#27
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

They can't have audited it... until the week before my audit of their system did not say they do not control drawings. They tell me that they are leaving it like this for their AS9100 audit next week as they are sure it is OK!
Because there are no guarantees that their CB auditor(s) would be involved with control of external documents and control of customer property, in the the upcoming audit, I plea for you to use the proper channels and bring this up to their CB. Give the CB a reason to delve into this aspect of the supplier QMS. Make the supplier AS/EN 9100 certificate work for you, the customer, as intended. But timing is of the essence here.

Let's use the process and keep both the supplier and their CB accountable. That is the solution. I don't have knowledge how the ICOP process is being managed in the UK, but I can tell you that, in the Americas Sector, people are working hard to make it work.

The OASIS feedback process now even allows you to communicate with the supplier CB and not making the supplier aware of the discussion, if you are concerned with that aspect.
 
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P

Phiobi

#28
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

Because there are no guarantees that their CB auditor(s) would be involved with control of external documents and control of customer property, in the the upcoming audit, I plea for you to use the proper channels and bring this up to their CB. Give the CB a reason to delve into this aspect of the supplier QMS. Make the supplier AS/EN 9100 certificate work for you, the customer, as intended. But timing is of the essence here.

Let's use the process and keep both the supplier and their CB accountable. That is the solution. I don't have knowledge how the ICOP process is being managed in the UK, but I can tell you that, in the Americas Sector, people are working hard to make it work.

The OASIS feedback process now even allows you to communicate with the supplier CB and not making the supplier aware of the discussion, if you are concerned with that aspect.
I have already sent feedback to their CB through OASIS. I have been working through this issue with our quality rep from Boeing who is also ICOP - will be interesting to see if the system works!!
 

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#29
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

Their scope on OASIS seems a bit strange.... Scope:Electroplating processes, passivation, de-embrittlement, anodising, zinc and manganese phosphating, organic coatings and NDT. This registration provides for the maintenance of lot traceability of materials and components, where specified.
Sounds to me like they're saying they don't provide maintenance of lot traceablility unless it's specifically asked for in the contract or something. If that is the case, it sounds like that should be an exclusion in the policy manual rather than a statement in their scope. Of course, this is just conjecture on my part.
 
A

arios

#30
My vote is to give them another non conformance

Lack of control of documents can eventually affect conformance to requirements. Many folks on this site should have horror stories to tell which can be traced back to lack of control of documents.

Just reading what you found makes me feel angry with your supplier. Don't let them go by with this game of words :argue:
 
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