Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled

M

MIREGMGR

#31
I'm not a 9100 guy, and this thread is pretty one-sided, so I'll be Devil's advocate:

Having to have, and operate according to, a functional quality management system might entail additional costs.

Whether or not some of us might think those costs would be offset by productivity gains due to improved managerial effectiveness, it's common for those who are resisting operating according to a QMS to sincerely believe that doing so would entail higher costs.

I'm guessing that if your supplier does five hundred jobs a year for you, you're a strategically important customer for them. Maybe without your business, they'd be out of business.

Given that guess, what is your supplier hearing from your purchasing people regarding pricing? Have they been under pricing pressure for a while, perhaps while under materials and labor cost pressure as well? Does your supplier feel, at their senior management level, that adding regulatory costs to their business relationship with you would kill their company? Has your company internally coordinated its message to the supplier?
 
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JaneB

#32
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

This supplier is obviously playing games with you.
That or perhaps they just don't have a clue. Which is even more of a worry.

Many moons ago, I had a registrant too stupid trying to play silly games like these and revised their manuals and procedures to the effect that...we will not control documents.....we will not perform design reviews....we will not calibrate our instrumentation....etc. in clear violation of the requirements from ISO 9001. They truly believed that, as long as they did what they said they were going to do, they were safe. Dumb, dumb move.
Indeed yes.

You're right to worry about it Phiobi - a supplier behaving like this is very suspicious.

Dumb (or ignorant) suppliers never want to control stuff. They haven't seen any kind of light at all (unless it was the train coming the other way).

Keep going!
 
J

JaneB

#33
Having to have, and operate according to, a functional quality management system might entail additional costs.
You make some good points - but what about the cost of fixing things that go wrong? Fixing NCs? Doing things again (instead of just once)?
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#34
In regard to this segment of the OP's first post:

Since I raised the issue they have asked me to cancel the NCR because...
“With reference to finding NC51, I have reviewed the control of documents clause in AS9100 and I have also spoken with our AS9100 certification body and I believe that we are compliant with clause 4.2.3 f) that you refer to. For the benefit of the persons copied on this e-mail, the clause states that a documented procedure shall be established to define the controls needed to:
f) Ensure that documents of external origin determined by the organisation to be necessary for the planning and operation of the quality management system are identified and their distribution controlled.
<company name> has such a procedure in place in which section 5 states “It is not <company name> policy to control drawings. All drawings are returned to the customer on completion of processing”.
The intention of this statement is that drawings are not controlled once the customer’s order is completed.
Whilst the drawing is on site it is controlled to the extent that the issue status is verified at contract review and the drawing accompanies our route card along with the customer’s purchase order.
Upon completion of the order the drawing is deemed to be no longer required and is returned with the parts.
Therefore because the drawing relating to a particular purchase order is under our control for the duration of processing, we deem to be compliant with the above clause.
To ensure we are all clear on the interpretation of this clause, I shall also seek advice from a couple of Senior Accreditation People I know (LLoyds, DNV).”
I know this is getting a bit long winded so I will get to the point. We send them a controlled drawing, we do not, as they state in their procedure send a new drawing for each order (500 orders per year) therefore it is my opinion that they should control drawings and have evidence of it.
A suggestion?
Why not compromise your company's ordering procedure to send the supplier a new up-to-date set of requirements with each order, even with each release of a long-term multi-year contract? This would make the situation fit with their avowed system. Maybe even add a clause for copies of their control plan and inspection plan prior to them beginning production of each order to demonstrate their readiness and understanding of the requirements you impose.
(It's unclear why they have not raised the issue themselves - don't their contracts with you, the customer, detail this little tidbit - that they will return all documents to you and treat each release as a new order for a new product, regardless whether the revisions and requirement change or remain the same?)

In the OP's case, it seems a simple compromise to demand the supplier keep zero engineering drawings from order to order (include a requirement to return documents with each shipment) and work only from up-to-date versions issued with each product release by the customer. The drawings can be hard copy or electronic, but the supplier then realizes he can't count on "institutional memory" (often faulty in my experience) to produce parts but has to treat each lot release as a new order. A new order requires new control plan, new inspection plan, maybe even new tooling and employee training. If the supplier is NOT doing this, how can you have confidence in his ability to produce according to your requirements? A smart supplier would soon realize such a lack of record keeping (control?) engenders much higher cost than the infrastructure of record keeping.

If and when the supplier realizes an internal record keeping and document management system is more efficient, he may change his tune about document retention and control.

:topic:
Often folks have slightly different interpretations of "control." Are you positive all parties are working from the same interpretation?
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#35
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

I have already sent feedback to their CB through OASIS. I have been working through this issue with our quality rep from Boeing who is also ICOP - will be interesting to see if the system works!!
:agree1:Keep in mind that, if you don't get a satisfactory feedback from the CB, you can escalate the issue to the Accreditation Body and even to the SMS of the ICOP Scheme in your country.

I don't know how many orders your organization has placed with the supplier so far this year, but 18 lot rejections, year to date, seem to be an awful high number of escapes.

This clear discrepancy between the supplier attesting that they don't keep customer documents after the order is finished and your system of providing a set of drawings, but no additional sets with each order obviously show a conflict between customer and supplier processes.

If you can, please keep us posted on the developments.
 
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