Supplier PPAP - TS 16949 Clause 7.3.6.3: For what products?

[Jim Wynne]

Need to have an operational definition of "bulk" which makes sense to your organization. We buy "bulk" (if bulk is defined as an off the shelf item) bearings but require PPAP becuase of the manner in which they are applied to our product.

We buy "bulk" oil which we use as an aid for some assembly operations and do not require PPAP for those items.

From the 4th Edition PPAP manual glossary:
"Bulk Material is a substance (e.g., non-dimensional solid, liquid, gas) such as adhesives, sealants, chemicals, coatings, fabrics, lubricants, etc. A bulk material may become a production material if issued a customer production part number..."

This means that a substance may be considered bulk material while still being a catalog or off-the-shelf item. On the other hand, such things as common hardware, electrical connectors and electronic components might be catalog items, but they are not bulk material in the PPAP sense.

The difference in the PPAP requirements (see page 1 of the 4th Edition manual) is that by default, PPAP is not required for bulk materials, while for catalog items, the default is PPAP unless specifically waived by the customer.

 

[jasonb067]

From the 4th Edition PPAP manual glossary:
"Bulk Material is a substance (e.g., non-dimensional solid, liquid, gas) such as adhesives, sealants, chemicals, coatings, fabrics, lubricants, etc. A bulk material may become a production material if issued a customer production part number..."

This means that a substance may be considered bulk material while still being a catalog or off-the-shelf item. On the other hand, such things as common hardware, electrical connectors and electronic components might be catalog items, but they are not bulk material in the PPAP sense.

The difference in the PPAP requirements (see page 1 of the 4th Edition manual) is that by default, PPAP is not required for bulk materials, while for catalog items, the default is PPAP unless specifically waived by the customer.

But those items described by AIAG as bulk may also not be bulk items to each organizations application. Each organization should make an informed decision as to what they will require PPAP of and what they will not. Someone should ask, "what is the purpose of PPAPs and do we need it for x, y and z?" Of course they must remain compliant to AIAG and customer standards but beyond that each organization must protect itself. Just because a book does not require it does not mean it is not a good idea to do it.

 

[Jim Wynne]

But those items described by AIAG as bulk may also not be bulk items to each organizations application. Each organization should make an informed decision as to what they will require PPAP of and what they will not. Someone should ask, "what is the purpose of PPAPs and do we need it for x, y and z?" Of course they must remain compliant to AIAG and customer standards but beyond that each organization must protect itself. Just because a book does not require it does not mean it is not a good idea to do it.

While I think we all hope that these decisions will be made in light of common sense and rational risk analysis, that's not always the case in automotive work. I think that the PPAP manual, in the wording I quoted, covers the type of situation you're referring to when it says that a bulk material becomes a "production part" when the customer assigns a production part number to it. In other words, whether PPAP is required or not is in part dependent on the level of control invoked by the customer. In general, the PPAP manual is comprised of default requirements, and those defaults should be overridden when it's prudent to do so.

 

[qusys]

While I think we all hope that these decisions will be made in light of common sense and rational risk analysis, that's not always the case in automotive work. I think that the PPAP manual, in the wording I quoted, covers the type of situation you're referring to when it says that a bulk material becomes a "production part" when the customer assigns a production part number to it. In other words, whether PPAP is required or not is in part dependent on the level of control invoked by the customer. In general, the PPAP manual is comprised of default requirements, and those defaults should be overridden when it's prudent to do so.

Thks Jim.
In any case there are also some divergences in the level of PPAP submission too.I mean level 1 , level 3 etc.
Sometimes PPAP for bulk materials ( gases for production, acid , other chemicals etc), that we purchase as "catalogue" anf then assigned them a part number too, have some items waivered with respect to the 18 elements in total.
Is it right this assumption? What doyou think about it? Consider that for chemical and gases we use in our seminconductor production line , there are specific internal procedure , in agreement with the supplier, to qualify them and then release them as "approved" in production lines after trial in house production and related data analysis.

I agree that AIAG guideline book shall be interpreted to protect the organiazation,but sometimes there are born some issues because quality people ( especially from customer point of view) do not know in depth this kind of document.

 

[Stijloor]

<snip> I agree that AIAG guideline book shall be interpreted to protect the organiazation,but sometimes there are born some issues because quality people ( especially from customer point of view) do not know in depth this kind of document.

That's why it is so important to be very knowledgeable with the AIAG Core Manuals, especially the (default) requirements in the PPAP manual. Otherwise you will be dancing to the "PPAP tune" of someone at the customers' site who may not be as competent in PPAP requirements as you are. Seen it too many times. In dealing with customers and their requirements, be prepared!!

Stijloor.

 

[Dan M]

Hopefully I can resurrect this topic. Our Organization purchases a commodity bulk chemical that is one of many raw materials in our product formulation. The finished product is sold to our automotive Customer and requires this Customer's PPAP approval. The Supplier of the commodity bulk material (raw material) is unwilling to sign a PPAP agreement.

Do I understand correctly that our Organization is not obligated to flow-down the PPAP requirement to our Supplier if they are supplying bulk material?

 

[Jim Wynne]

Hopefully I can resurrect this topic. Our Organization purchases a commodity bulk chemical that is one of many raw materials in our product formulation. The finished product is sold to our automotive Customer and requires this Customer's PPAP approval. The Supplier of the commodity bulk material (raw material) is unwilling to sign a PPAP agreement.

Do I understand correctly that our Organization is not obligated to flow-down the PPAP requirement to our Supplier if they are supplying bulk material?

Page 35 of the 4th edition PPAP manual:

Organizations are responsible for applying PPAP to their suppliers of ingredients which have organization-designated special characteristics.

What this means is that if (a) you don't have a customer-specific requirement to flow down PPAP to your suppliers and (b) you haven't designated special characteristics for your ingredients, PPAP from your ingredient suppliers isn't required.

 

[qusys]

Hopefully I can resurrect this topic. Our Organization purchases a commodity bulk chemical that is one of many raw materials in our product formulation. The finished product is sold to our automotive Customer and requires this Customer's PPAP approval. The Supplier of the commodity bulk material (raw material) is unwilling to sign a PPAP agreement.

Do I understand correctly that our Organization is not obligated to flow-down the PPAP requirement to our Supplier if they are supplying bulk material?

It depends on your requirements ( you are Customer in this sense towards your Supplier).
As per ISO TS par. 7.3.6.3 , if you agree with your Customer to sign off PPAP for your provided product, you shall apply it to your supplier too, considering that PPAP as procedure to approve product and mfg process.
However , you shall also develop your Supplier to comply with ISO TS standard.

 

[Icy Mountain]

We design and manufacture electronics. We get a specific waiver so that we do not have to apply PPAP to catalog electronic components. We do supplier PPAP only for custom designed product like chassis parts and circuit boards. Good luck getting a PSW and full PPAP for a MC74HC74AD from On Semiconductor or a resistor from Stackpole.

I always put something like "PPAP data and application limited to the documents provided with this PSW" in the comments section of the PSW. Unless you have set up some kind of "out", registrars' auditors expect to see a full PPAP with 19 sections of supporting data, applied all the way down the chain, even when your customer only requested a PSW and a sample.

 

[WCHorn]

F.1 on page 35 of the PPAP Ed 4 Manual begins "An organization supplying bulk materials shall ... " The manual goes on to define organizations as "providers of: a) production materials, b) production or service parts, c) assemblies, or d) heat treating, welding, plating or other finishing services directly (my emphasis) to the OEM or other customers requiring this document."

To me, if you (the organization) don't supply bulk materials directly to the customer, or you don't use customer-specified bulk materials for the finished product, then you are not obligated to enforce bulk PPAP requirements on your suppliers.

What say you all?