Supply Chain PPAP Requirements

G

gianni

#1
I have been a quality professional in the automotive industry for over 20 years and have worked for a few different companies. Depending on the company the need for PPAP through the supply chain has always puzzled me. What I would like to hear from everyone is when a PPAP is required from your customer, do you request PPAP's from your suppliers? I have only had a few customers ask if I had a PPAP from our supplier. At the same time, no one has ever asked me to supply any documents from the suppliers PPAP, except maybe a heat treat control plan. I have also been asked for a signed PSW showing proof that I approved their PPAP. However, I cannot find anywhere in the AIAG PPAP manual how to handle suppliers in the 3rd or 4th tier level.

Are there hard rules about these requirements? Specifically including supplier documents in my PPAP to my customer?

Thanks!

Gianni
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

weakness

Starting to get Involved
#2
It is about your company rules and your part specification.
You can use CQI-19 Subtier Supplier Requirement from AIAG .
Part specification is important.PPAP requirement changed according to:
  • If you have pass through characteristics,safety characteristics in your part.You have to demand from supplier all items.
  • If you supply batch material Supplier send imds,material data sheet,laboratory certificate and psw.
Of course you have to add your supplier documents into your ppap
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted Information Resource
#3
It is about your company rules and your part specification.
In my experience it is more driven by customer requirements than your own. Some customers insist on proof that you've flowed it up to your suppliers, some customers don't. Some don't even mention it.
 
G

gianni

#4
It is about your company rules and your part specification.
You can use CQI-19 Subtier Supplier Requirement from AIAG .
Part specification is important.PPAP requirement changed according to:
  • If you have pass through characteristics,safety characteristics in your part.You have to demand from supplier all items.
  • If you supply batch material Supplier send imds,material data sheet,laboratory certificate and psw.
Of course you have to add your supplier documents into your ppap
Can you further explain "pass through characteristics" and "batch material". Do you mean bulk material like paint or powder? We supply imported fasteners and perform value added processes to the product, internally and externally. I have requested PPAP's from my suppliers at this company but have never been asked to supply any details from our suppliers to our customers. So I ask myself why am I pushing the vendor for this paperwork. Do you send the vendors entire PPAP to customer?
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#5
Up till now it was a requirement of TS so if you were certified to TS it was an obligation
ISO/TS said:
7.3.6.3 Product approval process
The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer.
NOTE Product approval should be subsequent to the verification of the manufacturing process.
This product and manufacturing process approval procedure shall also be applied to suppliers.

It now appears to be more open to discussion.

IATF 16949 said:
8.3.4.4 Product approval process
The organization shall establish. implement, and maintain a product and manufacturing approval process conforming to requirements defined by the customers.
The organization shall approve externally provided products and services per ISO 9001; Section 8.4.3; prior to submission of their part approval to the customer.
 

weakness

Starting to get Involved
#6
Yeap batch material or bulk material.
I will explain pass through:You supply some materials from supplier.Some speacial features impact your quality and customer material quality.
For example:You supply closed conduit box from your supplier.And you assembe some thing then you will send to your customer.
Some electrical circuits can not be checked.So you supply but you cant control.
You supply from vendor.But manufactured company should provide some main documents.So they can send manufacturer document.
We supply tape.Same situation.We work with vendor.They will send analysis certificate,test reports,measurement report and psw cover page.Technical reports demand from manufacturer.So vendor should provide this.If you work two manufacturer
you will send to subtier ppap
 
Q

qualityauto

#7
7.3.6.3 Product approval process
"The organization shall conform to a product and manufacturing process approval procedure recognized by the customer.
NOTE Product approval should be subsequent to the verification of the manufacturing process.
This product and manufacturing process approval procedure shall also be applied to suppliers."

If our customer recognizes the AIAG PPAP requirements, would this next citation apply?

PPAP 4th Appendix F, F.2 Applicability
"Organizations are responsible for applying PPAP to their suppliers of ingredients which have organization-designated special characteristics.

Where OEM PPAP approval of a bulk material exists, evidence of that approval is sufficient as the PPAP submission at other levels in the supply chain."

CQI-19 Sub-Tier Management Process
"PTCs do not necessarily meet the PFMEA requirements to be Special Characteristics but require special risk mitigation so as not to impact the Customer (OEM)."

Is it a possible interpretation that prior to IATF 16949, the PPAP process, as defined by the Bulk Materials Requirements Checklist, is only required to be applied to bulk materials, which have been designated by the organization as having special characteristics and not already approved directly by the OEM?

That being said, it seems CQI-19 requires some sort of special treatment for bulk materials with PTC's, just not necessarily PPAP.

Anyone disagree?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DRAMMAN

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
Are you TS16949 certified? I would think that if you are then you need to use PPAP with suppliers.

Are you Tier 1? I am sure the expectation is that you do. But realistically, the supplier quality engineers who would normally check on your supplier PPAP's are likely sooo short staffed that they will never ask you unless you cause a major quality problem. Then they will crawl up your butt for a month. Then if you say you do not use PPAP you will have some difficult conversations.

my perspective comes from being a an OEM SQE who did PPAP's and APQP reviews at suppliers. I had probably a 100 suppliers I had to do PPAP's with. The expectation was that all suppliers are doing PPAP with their sub-tier suppliers but I never ever had time to verify that. When I was in Telcomm we used PPAP and expected suppliers to do PPAP but we never had time to verify it.

If there was a major quality issue and supplier blamed their supplier then we may ask to see their PPAP evidence.

I currently work for a Tier 1 supplier who supplier to all major OEM's (Ford, GM, Mercedes, JAg, Toyota, Honda, etc). My experience is that only the US suppliers ask for PPAP. The Non-US OEM's have othe rmethods. Even then, if you are a small supplier they will nto have time to ask for your PPAP's let alone your suppliers.
 
Q

qualityauto

#9
Thanks for the response and perspective. Yes, although I definitely have not seen as many PPAP's as you have, and do agree that all sub-supplier components require PPAP. Appendix F deals with the Applicability of PPAP to bulk materials and seemed to me to allow some discretion of the OEM and organization in whether to PPAP or not.

I am not sure whether I am interpreting it correctly. If you have time and wouldn't mind responding, have you accepted, for example, material certification documentation from a sub-supplier's distributor's thermoplastic resin manufacturer or a sub-supplier's steel distributor's steel mill accompanying your sub-supplier's component/assembly PPAP, instead of a (1) full PPAP from the component/assembly sub-supplier and a (2) full PPAP from their bulk material manufacturer?
 

DRAMMAN

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
I have never done a PPAP on raw material. Usually, material certs and/or testing evidence submitted as evidence. I could see a PPAP being required if the raw material was specifically developed for the application.
 
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