Supporting Processes - Internal Audits - Need help settling a debate

#1
We have two opinions about our internal audit and along with that the 3rd party audit. The main point of the disagreement is Supporting processes, do they need to be included in the internal audit or is it just the Key processes identified? 2nd part is will the 3rd party auditor dive into supporting processes or will he focus on mainly the Key processes with maybe a quick overview of supporting processes? Sorry if this sounds like kindergarten level stuff to you seasoned vets. Thanks in advance for any help.
 
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howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#2
Both internal audits and external audits are required to audit the quality management system, which includes all of the processes, key or other. The 3rd party auditor(s) will dig as deep as they feel they need to for any process.

IATF 16949 clause 9.2.2.2 said:
The organization shall audit all quality management system processes...
 
#3
We have two opinions about our internal audit and along with that the 3rd party audit. The main point of the disagreement is Supporting processes, do they need to be included in the internal audit or is it just the Key processes identified? 2nd part is will the 3rd party auditor dive into supporting processes or will he focus on mainly the Key processes with maybe a quick overview of supporting processes? Sorry if this sounds like kindergarten level stuff to you seasoned vets. Thanks in advance for any help.
Forgetting the CB auditor for a moment, the internal audit requirement states that "the the organization shall conduct internal audits at planned intervals to provide information on whether the quality management system:
a) conforms to:
1) the organizations own requirement for its quality management system;
2) the requirements of this International Standard;
b) is effectively implemented and maintained.

If your "supporting processes" are part of the QMS, you have your answer.

Based on what I've seen recently, the CB auditor didn't even cover the basics of what's been in the ISO/TS 16949 requirements for more than 6 years, so who knows what your specific auditor will do? Best thing is to contact them and ask...
 
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Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#4
We have two opinions about our internal audit and along with that the 3rd party audit. The main point of the disagreement is Supporting processes, do they need to be included in the internal audit or is it just the Key processes identified? 2nd part is will the 3rd party auditor dive into supporting processes or will he focus on mainly the Key processes with maybe a quick overview of supporting processes? Sorry if this sounds like kindergarten level stuff to you seasoned vets. Thanks in advance for any help.
In all likelihood the third party auditor will focus on some esoteric "support" process nobody even thought to think of and then ding you for that. :)

Here's where you may have some trouble. All of your key processes are made up of sub-processes. IATF talks a lot about monitoring and measuring processes. You may measure all of your big key processes but maybe not so much your small support processes. You may get a guy who wants you the measure those separately as opposed to as part of the larger key process. Then you'll have some fun.
 

normzone

Trusted Information Resource
#5
We have two opinions about our internal audit and along with that the 3rd party audit. The main point of the disagreement is Supporting processes, do they need to be included in the internal audit or is it just the Key processes identified? 2nd part is will the 3rd party auditor dive into supporting processes or will he focus on mainly the Key processes with maybe a quick overview of supporting processes? Sorry if this sounds like kindergarten level stuff to you seasoned vets. Thanks in advance for any help.
;) " That's not a debate, that's an argument. "

" No it's not ! "

 
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