Terminating an Internal Audit - Area totally out of control

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#11
Re: Terminating an Internal Audit

They had totally disregarded my "notice of audit" by not policing their area and performing some preparation. My rational for terminating the audit was that I wasn't going to waste my already taxed audit resources to document this mess when these people knew better.
I mean this in a constructive way. Any organization that uses the "threat" of an audit (internal or external) to "tide things up" is in the very early stages of a QMS maturity journey. Management there, has not "seen the light".

You did not make it clear where this internal audit fit in the big picture of this organization's life cycle. It is reasonable to expect that, during the early stages of a QMS structuring process, things will be VERY messy. I remember doing preliminary assessments in the early 90's which would result in over 350 non-conformities found.

Also, if the internal audit is perceived and effected as a policing activity and the auditees are unconcerned with the outcome of a negative result, you know top management is either "absent" or does not truly support the internal audit program.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Randy

Super Moderator
#12
Re: Terminating an Internal Audit

Glaring findings? Were they findings of conformance or non-conformance?

To chime in with a couple of others and to add my twist all you seem to be doing in this case is contributing to a dysfunctional situation and an inadequate process of management. Additionally to use your audit and the threat totally trashes the spirit of the internal audit purpose that instead of being a pro-active, value-added process it becomes reactive and punishing...Why not use a 32" Louisville Slugger because that seems to be the goal anyway?

"The audits will continue until performance is improved"...No way:nope:
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#13
Re: Terminating an Internal Audit

A little more background for the curious.
The particular audit area was supervised by people who were well aware of the requirements and had let the place go since the last audit 3 months prior. They had totally disregarded my "notice of audit" by not policing their area and performing some preparation. My rational for terminating the audit was that I wasn't going to waste my already taxed audit resources to document this mess when these people knew better. By the way, I have never performed a suprise or unannounced audit. I don't feel it should be necessary.
You said that they "let the place go" since the last audit. Were there findings three months ago, and they are not fixing them? That is information upper management needs to know.

I would have continued the internal audit. The words objective and impartial can be rough at times, but to me, you should rise above their mentality. Provide them an audit report that can provide value to them and their processes. More important, provide management objective information about how the QMS is functioning.
 
B

Bob the QE

#14
Re: Terminating an Internal Audit

Under the conditions you explained on the surface I may have terminated this part of the audit (not knowing the complete scope it is hard to say), but I may have continued in a vertical path (through the processes) to determine if there could be other findings that would offer the organization some value added activities. I would do this because most organizations spend effort and resources as limited as it might seem to prepare for an audit. As other have noted I too would be interested in how compliant they can get their systems in 7 days or 30 days.

Good luck
 
B

Bob Bonville

#15
Re: Terminating an Internal Audit

Bob, this was an area audit where we do a broad brush that includes a number of the system requirements as it relates to an assembly area such as; calibration, shelf life, material certs, operator certs, ESD, doc control etc. What I observed initially were all minor in nature. Any major findings would have been documented immediately.

After terminating the audit and debriefing to their management and mine concerning what I saw in my short 15 minutes, my management in particular endorsed my decision. My return visit was quite different, I only found 2 minor findings and a couple opportunities for improvement.

They developed a self-surveillance audit process, administered by their group leaders and supervisor.
 
B

Bob the QE

#17
Re: Terminating an Internal Audit

It appears that you had accomplished what you had targeted so in that light your management team should be satisfied. The time table would seem a little short to provide solid evidence of the solutions, but heck it was your audit so who am I to question. :cool:
I am entering the AS world and as hard as it may be I am working with our staff to get away from the "Minor-Major" thing. I see a finding against a requirement as a finding, but boy it is a tough pill to swallow for some folks who have grown up on ISO. Any ideas on this, or maybe I need to go to another post area?
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#18
Re: Terminating an Internal Audit

:topic:What about a Smith & Wesson Model 29.44 magnum, preceded with a plea?
I actually carried one at work about 30 years or so ago, along with a nickle-plated Stevens 311C double-barrel 12 guage. Both were real attention getters;)
 
R

raju8177

#19
Re: Terminating an Internal Audit

I undergone like this situation many times, but not terminated the audit. collected all the NC's and highlighted it in Top managment meeting. which ultimately given good results. Also in some cases after doing re auditing for 3 to 4 times it was turned to the good result.

I think so, terminating the audit is also giving the chance to concern not to improve there area & ultimate prodcution loss & system failure
 
B

Bob the QE

#20
Re: Terminating an Internal Audit

:topic:
Randy and Sidney, I hope for the audited organizations you folks were the lead auditors....if not what where they holding...Howitzers (sp):D
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
C Consequences of terminating a subcontractor re continuity of supply CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 0
Q ISO 9001-2015 Internal audit finding Internal Auditing 12
lanley liao How to understand this words that the planning of internal audit shall take into consideration the results of previous audits? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 10
A Add MDSAP to Internal Audit Schedule Medical Device Related Regulations 0
J IATF 16949 Internal Audit question - Auditor's responsibility Internal Auditing 6
M ISO13485:2016, MDSAP and Internal Audits ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 8
S IATF 16949 Internal Audit Example IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
R AS9100D internal audit checklist or ISO 9001 2015 to AS9100 D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
S Would this be a second site for the purposes of internal and third party audits? General Auditing Discussions 4
V Internal Auditor Competency KPI IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 14
J ISMS - Internal Audits Internal Auditing 3
M ISO 13485:2016 internal audit checklist Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 5
S ISO 9001:2015 Internal Auditing Internal Auditing 8
A Internal Audit Questions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
L Documented Information in Internal Audits Process (9.2) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
salaheddine96 Internal audit planning Internal Auditing 2
D CB and customer audits considered as internal audits? General Auditing Discussions 9
M ISO 9001 Major Nonconformance Internal Audit Schedule/COVID-19 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
E MDR internal audit Internal Auditing 1
B Internal Auditor Competency - Product Auditors Internal Auditing 9
U Internal Auditor not trained but done Audit for some process Nonconformance and Corrective Action 5
F Internal transfer of work from one line to another? Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 3
B Looking for 10 Internal Audit Online Training Participants ISO 17025 related Discussions 2
R Monitor production quality - Internal KPIs Manufacturing and Related Processes 5
R IATF 16949 - Outsourcing of internal audits Internal Auditing 10
M Major vs. Minor for Internal Audits? Internal Auditing 10
T Internal Nonconformance procedure thoughts (AS9100) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
M Tips on preparing for IATF 16949 Internal Lead Auditor exam Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
C Internal Audits in a tiny Dx Company Internal Auditing 33
H AS9100 Checklist for Internal Audit needed AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
A What are the pros and cons of using an audit software for internal auditing? General Auditing Discussions 7
F Internal Audit before Pre-Assessment ISO 17025 related Discussions 2
Q Internal audit plan template Internal Auditing 12
E PEMS Hazards - IEC 60601 Clause 14.6 - Internal data use - Pressure sensor IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 3
L Internal audit during COVID-19 restrictions ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
A QMS Overhaul - Reorganizing and Renaming Documents - Internal References Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 24
N Sampling Plan for Internal Audits - ISO 2859 or 3951 - Or Neither? Internal Auditing 6
O ISO13485 implementation - Are internal audits expected before stage 1 audit? Design and Development of Products and Processes 3
B Using Unreleased Documents & Process Maps for Internal Audit purposes ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
M Help me improve the definition for internal PPM Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
S ISO 13485 Lead Auditor - Debate between our Quality Team and Regulatory Auditor - Internal Auditor Training ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 17
S Risk based internal auditing Internal Auditing 6
O Informational Scaling back internal audits due to corona virus while avoiding a NC Internal Auditing 7
N Small Company - Internal audit process - Who does the audit? Internal Auditing 16
J Does anyone have an excel IATF 16949 Internal Audit checklist I could use? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
G Addressing Non-Conformances from an Internal Audit that are not product related ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 11
S Software for Supplier Charge back and internal PPM General Information Resources 2
G Internal Audits and Employee engagement Internal Auditing 16
I What direction do you provide your internal auditors on OFIs? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 38
S Internal calibrations - Part of an ISO 17025 accredited testing laboratory (Automotive) ISO 17025 related Discussions 16

Similar threads

Top Bottom