The Best Way to Quickly Review the Quality Situation

#21
Agree with you AndyN, but I wanted to help the colleague to discover better the organization and its processes, given that he is new as declared.
Clearly the questions of the check list are numerous but he could find inspiration to check the status of things and organization processes in an objective way. It could be one of means to have the pulse of the organization, understand the strengths and the possibility of improvement and then plan. I think it is fundamental the sponsorship of the top management.:bigwave:
I would hope that they would have a copy of the standard and I'm not sure how a TS based audit checklist would help anyone understand the organization and its processes! Isn't that what the Q Manual and other documentation is for?

Perhaps if you'd something in mind you would share it. I'm willing to learn a different way!
 
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KevinCabral

#22
The success of the audit will be based on your diplomacy skills when you write the report. Sensativity to the way in which you report issues, non-conformances, and improvement areas. I would recommend discussing your findings with the department head before publishing a report. Not to defer to the indivdual but maybe to state findings in a way that the culture will accept.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#23
I would hope that they would have a copy of the standard and I'm not sure how a TS based audit checklist would help anyone understand the organization and its processes! Isn't that what the Q Manual and other documentation is for?

Perhaps if you'd something in mind you would share it. I'm willing to learn a different way!
I take the move from what Abak said in a previous post at pag. 1: " Yes, company is manufactures for automotive industry and has iso/ts registration. They need to grow up and their system which is good enough is not working. They have a lot of papers on the production, a lot of records but it is too much for review. I need to short that and use some good way to start. Maybe somebody was in the same situation? "

To have a sort of picture of the status, I think he should understand the environment, interwieving the process owners of the processes of the organization, undestand if there are gaps vs the standard, apart from having the ISO TS certificate. I think that an organization should follow and be certificated vs a standard to improve their processes and not having a system on the paper.
Clearly he should review Quality manual, the seven mandatory procedures, the KPI of the processes and so on, undestands what the level of commitment of top management is to better address his efforts, in conjuntion with Top mgmt.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#24
Hello everybody :bigwave:
After a few years I come back on forum, for me it's the best way for develop myself.
I have mix in my mind - I will be quality manager for first time and my first target is to make GOOD review of the company and present the situation - where we are and what we can do for improve. Company produces more than 500 different parts and I have 3 months for make it. HOW TO DO IT in good and quick way? What kind of audits I should plan? How to present the results to have them understanable? Is there anybody who can help me?
Abak,

Make it clear to everyone that their management system should be helping them to meet requirements. Obtain top management's agreement to this goal. Then audit the system to see how well it does this. Gather ideas, develop and lead teams to simplify and streamline your company's management system while retaining its integrity.

Top management may need to invest in IT to support this initiative.

Good Luck,

John
 
T

tomvehoski

#25
I would not spend much time setting up formal audits at first. You will learn much more by just going out and talking to people. What issues do they have? What works well? What does not? Do they think the system is useful (if they even know it exists)?

Start at the bottom of the org chart and work your way up. What process owners and managers think is happening is often far from what the process users are actually seeing/doing. If you go into "audit mode", you might trigger the workers to do the same and give the answer you are supposed to hear, not the truth.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#26
I would not spend much time setting up formal audits at first. You will learn much more by just going out and talking to people. What issues do they have? What works well? What does not? Do they think the system is useful (if they even know it exists)?

Start at the bottom of the org chart and work your way up. What process owners and managers think is happening is often far from what the process users are actually seeing/doing. If you go into "audit mode", you might trigger the workers to do the same and give the answer you are supposed to hear, not the truth.

Agree with you too. Tom!
For this reason I adviced a sort of "gap analysis" with some reference question addressed to several level of the organization, using a method that could would help him to assess the things in an objective way.
After that, he could analyse abd then plan do improve if it is requested.
A sort of PDCA approach overall.:bigwave:
 
#27
I would not spend much time setting up formal audits at first. You will learn much more by just going out and talking to people. What issues do they have? What works well? What does not? Do they think the system is useful (if they even know it exists)?

Start at the bottom of the org chart and work your way up. What process owners and managers think is happening is often far from what the process users are actually seeing/doing. If you go into "audit mode", you might trigger the workers to do the same and give the answer you are supposed to hear, not the truth.
I don't see any difference! What's a 'formal audit' compared to just doing what you suggest? Isn't that a true internal audit? 'Audit mode' - what's that? Seriously, I'd really like to know because I have this feeling that people spend too much time making audits look like their CB audits and scare a lot of people off the idea...it really worries me about the state of QMS auditing when someone like you, Tom, suggests 'you'll learn more by just talking to people'...
 
T

tomvehoski

#28
"Formal Audit" to me is scheduling something with, lets say, a machine operator. Walking up to them with a checklist, taking notes, asking to see their procedures, looking at thier records, writing nonconformances and so on. You are right that many (most?) places treat internal audits like registration audits, so it can put people on the defensive. Many places have trained them to stick to yes/no answeres, not volunteer information, recite the quality policy as soon as you walk up, etc. Nobody is going to say "the boss gives us garbage equipment", "doesen't fix anything", and so on if they think they are being audited.

It sounds like the OP is dealing with a dysfunctional quality system and quite possibly dysfunctional organization. Those are often cultural problems in my experience. You learn a lot more about the culture having lunch in the breakroom with the line workers or engineers than you do with an audit. It also gives the OP a way to decide if there is actually hope for improvement or if it is time to bail from a sinking ship. Audits are great for improving and tweaking functional systems. They don't do much for the dysfunctional.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#29
All,

Auditors need not interview auditees. They make it clear that they are there to see how well the system helps the person, with whom they are conversing, to anticipate, know and fulfill requirements.

Yes, instead of interviewing, they show genuine interest in the work and enter into a conversation with the auditees and listen very carefully while seeking evidence and making visible notes to support any claims of good or bad.

People may be fearful of audit if in the past they have been seen as tools of the system instead of the other way around.

Auditors should be verifying how well the system helps its users to do good work. Too many auditors look for conformity to procedures; that is the job of the operators, supervisors, managers, etc doing their monitoring per 8.2.3.

John
 
#30
"Formal Audit" to me is scheduling something with, lets say, a machine operator. Walking up to them with a checklist, taking notes, asking to see their procedures, looking at their records, writing nonconformances and so on. You are right that many (most?) places treat internal audits like registration audits, so it can put people on the defensive. Many places have trained them to stick to yes/no answers, not volunteer information, recite the quality policy as soon as you walk up, etc. Nobody is going to say "the boss gives us garbage equipment", "doesn't fix anything", and so on if they think they are being audited.

It sounds like the OP is dealing with a dysfunctional quality system and quite possibly dysfunctional organization. Those are often cultural problems in my experience. You learn a lot more about the culture having lunch in the breakroom with the line workers or engineers than you do with an audit. It also gives the OP a way to decide if there is actually hope for improvement or if it is time to bail from a sinking ship. Audits are great for improving and tweaking functional systems. They don't do much for the dysfunctional.
So, Tom, the issue I see is that a new person is going to have a problem if they have to listen to everything that everyone is going to tell them about how screwed up the place is! I've not yet found a place that doesn't have some folks who know exactly how 'they'd run' the place.

All fine and dandy, but it take for ever to stop them spouting about the rights and wrongs, and get to the facts. I'd suggest a blend of what you call a 'formal audit', with the 'informal' process you describe. What they think works etc, as you say 'in a dysfunctional' company is not going to be very objective, IMHO and it'll take a very experienced auditor to cut through all that. I'm not convinced that, from what we've been told, it's that big a problem, anyway.

I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement about a dysfunctional system and using audits. It's all in the name of improvement isn't it? Maybe the focus is different from what you're used to. What you've described is exactly what I rail against here when I see people talking about 'preparing for audits' etc. I hope what you described isn't the way you've been doing audits, BTW...
 
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