The challenge of why should we have ISO9001 and process audit

Y

ylliu8888

#1
Hi friends,

we currently been challenged in internal cross team discusstion between quality and procurement.

the argument is : why should we have quality audit? why you conducted quality audit in supplier side, but still quality incident happend?

these challenge may from differnet point of view, such as:
-quality audit is kicking out supplier
-quality audit is only a general quality system audit , it still have quality failure
-what if we missing quality audit.

as a auditor, what will you answer there question to procurment?

waiting online for answers.
many thanks!
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Re: (need help) The challenge of why should we have ISO900 and process audit

why should we have quality audit? why you conducted quality audit in supplier side, but still quality incident happend?
Because you have decided to conduct quality audit....
An audit will not arrest quality incidents. it is not a pre-delivery inspection.
The audit process including supplier communication and agreement may not be effective.
Audit is not a magic tool for control over outsourced process.
There is no force to conduct supplier audit.
The Supplier << >> Your company requirements must be addressed first and ensured that they happen according to plan.
Later as a part of ongoing control, Audit at supplier MAY BE put in place.
At this juncture, the supplier audit program and scope must be clearly defined and due competency for supplier audit be established by your company.
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
#3
Re: (need help) The challenge of why should we have ISO900 and process audit

Hi friends,

we currently been challenged in internal cross team discusstion between quality and procurement.

the argument is : why should we have quality audit? why you conducted quality audit in supplier side, but still quality incident happend?

these challenge may from differnet point of view, such as:
-quality audit is kicking out supplier
-quality audit is only a general quality system audit , it still have quality failure
-what if we missing quality audit.

as a auditor, what will you answer there question to procurment?

waiting online for answers.
many thanks!
8888,

The purchasing process is primarily responsible for selecting suppliers that consistently take effective action to assure their delivery of conforming services and products.

The procurement department owns, plans, resources, operates, controls, monitors and improves this process not the quality department.

The quality department may advise procurement on this without taking responsibility for it so the quality department remains impartial and objective in its auditing of the effectiveness of the purchasing process.

Your organization's process-based management system should reflect this.

Given top management's objectives for the internal audits, the best the auditing process can do is report how well the procurement department is doing its job.

Procurement is avoiding responsibility by suggesting that audit is responsible for preventing poor performance by its suppliers.

It seems to me that your leaders first have to get their management system running such that procurement fulfills its authorities and responsibilities for ensuring that suppliers fulfill the requirements specified by your organization.

John
 
Y

ylliu8888

#4
Re: (need help) The challenge of why should we have ISO900 and process audit

8888,

The purchasing process is primarily responsible for selecting suppliers that consistently take effective action to assure their delivery of conforming services and products.

The procurement department owns, plans, resources, operates, controls, monitors and improves this process not the quality department.

The quality department may advise procurement on this without taking responsibility for it so the quality department remains impartial and objective in its auditing of the effectiveness of the purchasing process.

Your organization's process-based management system should reflect this.

Given top management's objectives for the internal audits, the best the auditing process can do is report how well the procurement department is doing its job.

Procurement is avoiding responsibility by suggesting that audit is responsible for preventing poor performance by its suppliers.

It seems to me that your leaders first have to get their management system running such that procurement fulfills its authorities and responsibilities for ensuring that suppliers fulfill the requirements specified by your organization.

John
Hi John,
thanks for reply. as my understanding, your point is procurement should take the ownship and responsibility in supplier management and supplier audit. and Quality give advisor by conducting supplier audit.
so, the question is, what's the auditor's value? only give advise to procurement?

or any other value is there from auditor perspective.

Simon
 
Y

ylliu8888

#5
Re: (need help) The challenge of why should we have ISO900 and process audit

Because you have decided to conduct quality audit....
An audit will not arrest quality incidents. it is not a pre-delivery inspection.
The audit process including supplier communication and agreement may not be effective.
Audit is not a magic tool for control over outsourced process.
There is no force to conduct supplier audit.
The Supplier << >> Your company requirements must be addressed first and ensured that they happen according to plan.
Later as a part of ongoing control, Audit at supplier MAY BE put in place.
At this juncture, the supplier audit program and scope must be clearly defined and due competency for supplier audit be established by your company.

Yes, we know we have quality audit base on the plan. the most important things is why we have conducted quality audit but still quality failure occurred.
thank you for share your thinking.
 
#6
Re: (need help) The challenge of why should we have ISO900 and process audit

Yes, we know we have quality audit base on the plan. the most important things is why we have conducted quality audit but still quality failure occurred.
thank you for share your thinking.
Simon.....
If a quality failure occurred and at your place, you have to work on a supplier corrective action request and associate with the supplier to drill to the root cause and eliminate the type of failure.
Your supplier audit can look at the supplier's corrective action process and its implementation and effective monitoring, so that there is assured less chances that the same will repeat.
Your supplier audit can look at the data analysis and improvement process of the supplier, in order to assure yourself that failures will be more detected and stopped from reaching you, and that supplier has a mechanism for effective final inspection and is keen on continual improvement.
 
Last edited:

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
#7
Re: (need help) The challenge of why should we have ISO900 and process audit

Hi John,
thanks for reply. as my understanding, your point is procurement should take the ownship and responsibility in supplier management and supplier audit. and Quality give advisor by conducting supplier audit.
so, the question is, what's the auditor's value? only give advise to procurement?

or any other value is there from auditor perspective.

Simon
Simon,

The management system is meant to work well without audit.

The Quality Department advises top management on the effectiveness of their organizational management system.

But this brief has to come from top management.

Procurement depending on audit suggests to me they are not doing their job of selecting, managing and improving suppliers.

The Quality Department can help Procurement to improve their purchasing process but they should be specific on the help they need.

Meanwhile, obtain top management's objectives for their audit programme.

Audit should not be plastering over the cracks in the integrity of the organizational management system. Instead it should tell top management where their compliments or help is overlooked and required.

John
 
#8
Re: (need help) The challenge of why should we have ISO900 and process audit

Hi John,
thanks for reply. as my understanding, your point is procurement should take the ownship and responsibility in supplier management and supplier audit. and Quality give advisor by conducting supplier audit.
so, the question is, what's the auditor's value? only give advise to procurement?

or any other value is there from auditor perspective.

Simon
I have been a Supplier Quality manager and my job was to bring, though audit, an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of dealing with a supplier, before the decision was taken to order. That way we could decide to support the supplier and control what we received in a pro-active way. If you had failures, after an audit, I might question what happened internally at your organization which allowed this to occur.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
#9
Re: (need help) The challenge of why should we have ISO900 and process audit

Yes, we know we have quality audit base on the plan. the most important things is why we have conducted quality audit but still quality failure occurred.
thank you for share your thinking.
An audit's results are based on a sample and may not include every possible failure mode, even if it is designed to try. This can be especially true with supplier audits, where one is only physically present for a short time versus the main site where we may be present every day and could see and hear more.

The process audit is expected to show all the parts are in place, and functioning. If execution is flawed or another type of issue causes quality failure, the corrective action process is expected to help close that gap.
:2cents:
 
Y

ylliu8888

#10
Re: (need help) The challenge of why should we have ISO900 and process audit

I have been a Supplier Quality manager and my job was to bring, though audit, an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of dealing with a supplier, before the decision was taken to order. That way we could decide to support the supplier and control what we received in a pro-active way. If you had failures, after an audit, I might question what happened internally at your organization which allowed this to occur.

Hi, this give me some inspiration on the points and what is the issue for the failure?

Simon
 
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