The Customer does not Audit to their own Supplier Quality Manual

J

JaneB

#11
Re: Customers don't always follow their own system!

I feel for you - you have learned (by very unfortunate example) that poor auditing can cause enormous amounts of angst and eat up huge amounts of time.

I've had clients get into similar problems - one (large multinational) customer came along to a client's (also large multinational) premises to do a 'supplier audit'. They produced a lengthy & virtually incomprehensible report with incomprehensible and findings without evidence, stated in terms which were unintelligible, etc... and then demanded action on them.

I did think in that case that the audited organisation contributed to their own problems, because they didn't have a systematic process, they didn't manage it well, they did have a few internal weaknesses, and they didn't get from the customer any kind of audit scope or plan in the first place... they just allowed their customer personnel to come in and do whatever they did. (Not well in my opinion). It certainly drives one back again to look at the the various Standards and appreciate, yet again, why certain things are included.

As Wes very wisely says:
systematic processes take the events out of the "special, emotion-charged, fire-fighting" category into "business as usual" where the real work gets performed.
And both Jim & Wes have provided some fine advice on how to manage the situation.

Ultimately, as has been said, your management may have to swallow hard and wear it, depending on how much you want the business. But I would look at finding a better way of managing things in future, or at least aiming to prevent some of the worst of the problems.

It can be most helpful in your discussions/meetings to keep referencing back to the facts and the evidence (ie, stay objective) and quote an International Standard - eg, the Auditing one - whenever & wherever possible, as this keeps the focus on that rather than 'personalising' things.

eg, 'well, we assume the auditing process should be based on the requirements in this International Standard - I imagine you would agree that this is an excellent way to go? And it stipulates that ...'

PS: I don't favour the 'tell your customer your organisation is thinking about their proposals for improvement very carefully because they (the proposal) are so "wise"' approach. I never favour untruths.
 
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J

joshua_sx1

#12
Re: Customers don't always follow their own system!

PS: I don't favour the 'tell your customer your organisation is thinking about their proposals for improvement very carefully because they (the proposal) are so "wise"' approach. I never favour untruths.
…yeah… why don’t you just tell them directly that their complaint is invalid and lay down your reasoning…

…an open discussion is always the best approach when dealing with miscommunication scenario between customer and supplier…

:2cents:
 
Z

zancky

#13
well, I would like to explain better my position:
the word "wise" it is not the best to use but my poor english didn't suggest something better.
In the "real" world there are customers who don't care about ISO standards and CB, your argumentations etc. Their auditors came with the specific task to check if You are using their procedures. E.g. it doesn't matter if You have already got an 8D form, You must use, even internally, a copy of their form, adopting all their procedures. Same for R&R, MSA etc. Their auditors don't discuss with You if your current prodcedure or the standards are working well, they are not allowed to do that by their organization. The only discussion may be how long it takes to You to adopt their procedures. Objectiveness is not a finding for "mistakes", "potential failures" etc. but just a discrepancy from their Quality procedures.
At the end of the audit You are wondering if it make sense to pay a CB for audit your system.
Most of the time the said customers wait for weeks to send You the report where normally You find more findings respect to what they told You during the audit.
In such a case I tried to be as polite and kind as possible. On the other side I tried to figure out the implications of their findings in order to present that to my top management and get a final position from them. As it takes time I need to calm the customer we are working on it.
 
J

JaneB

#14
well, I would like to explain better my position:
the word "wise" it is not the best to use but my poor english didn't suggest something better.
Mi scusi. My apologies if I didn't take your meaning clearly - and I quite understand about language difficulties :) - your English by the way is way, way better than my very limited Italian!

I do understand that such things as the scenario you describe can occur. And your approach sounds like a very good one to a very difficult situation.

In such a case I tried to be as polite and kind as possible. On the other side I tried to figure out the implications of their findings in order to present that to my top management and get a final position from them. As it takes time I need to calm the customer we are working on it.
And a much more diplomatic one than Joshua's suggestion of 'just tell them it's invalid' - which sounds to me (unless he meant it tongue in cheek) like a very good way of inflaming the situation!
 
B

bazzle - 2012

#15
Re: Customers don't always follow their own system!

…yeah… why don’t you just tell them directly that their complaint is invalid and lay down your reasoning…

…an open discussion is always the best approach when dealing with miscommunication scenario between customer and supplier…

:2cents:
Ive had to do just that more than once with larger Automotive customers.
Sadly the auditors from there do not always seem to understand normal business/manufacturing processes, only what they have read in text books, or from there internally developed internal procedures.
I have had issues with level of competence required to perform a certain task and how it related to the level of training required.
I answered that one by referring to the training records AND the job prerequisites.
Most Quality standards I have ever read always state something similar to : "the level of competence or training to perform the task".
I have never changed internal procedures to suit an auditor at that level. I demonstrate (sometimes in written reply) how we achieve the control of the finished product. May be by testing, inspection or whatever.

Bazzle
 
R

RickT

#16
I did not see any indication that your sales people who deal (hopefully directly) V this customer have been involved in the issue. If it is true that they are not involved would it not be a good idea to bring them into the discussions?
 
J

joshua_sx1

#17
Re: Customers don't always follow their own system!

Ive had to do just that more than once with larger Automotive customers.
Sadly the auditors from there do not always seem to understand normal business/manufacturing processes, only what they have read in text books, or from there internally developed internal procedures.
I have had issues with level of competence required to perform a certain task and how it related to the level of training required.
I answered that one by referring to the training records AND the job prerequisites.
Most Quality standards I have ever read always state something similar to : "the level of competence or training to perform the task".
I have never changed internal procedures to suit an auditor at that level. I demonstrate (sometimes in written reply) how we achieve the control of the finished product. May be by testing, inspection or whatever.

Bazzle
…I do understand your predicament…. unfortunately, you are on the side of the boat where you have to comply with the requirement of the one entity (or more) who keeps your business ongoing…

…using your customer’s supplied standard forms, I guess had been discussed and agreed during your contract review process (or whatever process you may have dealing with customer requirements)… the point is, your organization (might) already agreed on that condition that is why your customer is insisting you to follow what have been already agreed… unless of course, mishap happens, and these “requirements” have not been discussed and agreed before… then you have valid reason to disagree with what they are compelling you to do…
 
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