The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results - aka Fraud

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#31
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

I know for me I will never be a Quality Manager in the aerospace industry. All the examples I sited were aerospace companies. The liability, and the guilt, that would come back on me if a plane fell out of the sky would be more than I could handle.
I've only worked where I work now that handled aerospace products and they would never fake inspection results or anything like that. Even if I have reasons to try to keep my job until I can find another, I would still draw the line at end user safety whether it's a plane or a car. If that problem were ever presented then I would probably consult a lawyer.

I had worked in the automotive industry prior to working here - both production and prototype - where I've fabricated entire SPC charts, Machine Maintenance Logs, Internal Audits and Management Review meetings, for example. Happy about it? No. The two places that made me do this were very short employment periods - I was at one job for 3 months (I found a new job and quit) and the other for 5 months (I ended up being fired from this one because I finally said "no" and got into an argument with one of the owners).
 
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BradM

Staff member
Admin
#32
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

ASIDE: In my present situation, I have never had any situation even close to a dilemma. However, many bridges were crossed before this one.

When I owned my own company doing calibrations, there were all kinds of situations that came up. NOTE: There is a significant, clear difference between ignorance and deception. I had to calibrate things that did not need to be calibrated, simply because people did not understand their process. OK, no problem. I was asked to.. put earlier dates.. and, leave some uncompleted stickers laying around. Too, I was asked to pass things that failed, and strangely enough, failed things that passed (where they could justify buying a new one). The answer every single time was NO!

As I understand it, SOX was implemented to clean up the game, and add a signature from the treasurer on things. Pretend that's true, even if it's not. How will little white lies, however well-intended, dilute the purpose of the legislation?

I'm by no means perfect, and I pass no judgement on anybody. You do what you have to do when you do it. I have NEVER (OK, maybe once or twice when my wife asked if she looked fat in a dress):D came across the situation where it was necessary to compromise my ethics. Have I said lies and such? Sure, I'm not perfect. My point is that there was no need; and usually created more problems than if I had just been truthful.

I would rather work three jobs making lousy money to support my family, than sell my integrity. I could not take my family to church or talk to my kids about right/wrong with a clear conscience knowing that I could not even walk the line.

OJ Simpson, truly/honestly believes he's innocent, and he's going to find the real killer. You tell yourself a lie long enough, you'll begin to believe it.
 
M

mlthompson

#33
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

So, it would be safe to say that falsifying is a dilemma we "can" face. With this I mean more than "creative authoring" done for corrective action responses, but blantant, crossing the line falsification. We all will have our limits of how far we will go before we draw the line.

So how can we prevent ourselves from getting into those companies where falsification will be expected? As I mentioned, I point blank ask during the interview process. But is there a right/wrong way to approach this during an interview? Is it appropriate to make it part of the hiring contract/agreement?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#34
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

So how can we prevent ourselves from getting into those companies where falsification will be expected? As I mentioned, I point blank ask during the interview process. But is there a right/wrong way to approach this during an interview? Is it appropriate to make it part of the hiring contract/agreement?
Speaking frankly, if I were interviewing someone who asked me if he would be expected to be dishonest I would (A) take offense, and (B) respond by saying that I would expect the interviewee to be able to use sound judgement and common sense in the inevitable situations that present ethical dilemmas.

If you expect bright lines, you face a lifetime of confusion and disappointment.
 

Steve Prevette

Deming Disciple
Staff member
Super Moderator
#35
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

So how can we prevent ourselves from getting into those companies where falsification will be expected? As I mentioned, I point blank ask during the interview process. But is there a right/wrong way to approach this during an interview? Is it appropriate to make it part of the hiring contract/agreement?
I don't think it appropriate to ask point blank in a hiring interview. Besides, maybe "they" are currently doing it, but if you refuse, it will stop.

My story is this - I was originally hired by Westinghouse as a maintenance supervisor. I got diverted into making SPC charts about 6 months into the job. Two months after this diversion, I got transfered from the maintenance department to the deputy of the VP of the project. My predecessor warned me coming it that the manager had repeatedly directed him to falsify data on charts, and he was pretty well sick of the job. Now, according to some, they would have run away. I stuck with the new position. I will say that although on occasion I got "can't you make this look a little better", I never once was asked to falsify the data. I always stood behind the product (charts) and was able to provide interpretations and what could be done to improve the situation.

Years later, after he was no longer my manager, he did admit he faced some negative repurcussions when he carried forth my charts to the VP.

But my point is - there was a belief by my predecessor that he needed to falsify the charts. And once Pandora's box was opened, he couldn't close it. I never opened the box, and still survived quite well.
 
M

mlthompson

#36
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

Speaking frankly, if I were interviewing someone who asked me if he would be expected to be dishonest I would (A) take offense, and (B) respond by saying that I would expect the interviewee to be able to use sound judgement and common sense in the inevitable situations that present ethical dilemmas.
Jim, I know what you said is the harsh reality. What Steve has said can also be true, when you put your foot down, the expectation can disappear, but this is not always a guarantee. For me though, there are certain things I will not cross the line on. I will not do jail time for anyone or put anyone's life in jeopardy, despite the negative effects on family. I figure that asking during the interview will prevent the "inevitable" unemployment that definitely will arise if I am asked to cross the line. How's this for preventive action? :D I figure this course of action is appropriate to the affects of the potential problems.:D
 
C

Craig H.

#37
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

So, it would be safe to say that falsifying is a dilemma we "can" face. With this I mean more than "creative authoring" done for corrective action responses, but blantant, crossing the line falsification. We all will have our limits of how far we will go before we draw the line.

So how can we prevent ourselves from getting into those companies where falsification will be expected? As I mentioned, I point blank ask during the interview process. But is there a right/wrong way to approach this during an interview? Is it appropriate to make it part of the hiring contract/agreement?
How about this? Ask how the specifications were set in the first place. If you get a "seat of the pants" answer, run like the seat of your pants are on fire. If they talk about statistical tolerancing and such, well...
 
R

ralphsulser

#38
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

To follow Craig's post:Sometimes the tolerances have been set by the company making the product, not the customer. It may be that the tolerances were unrealistic in the frist place. I have been involved in situations where we established the tolerances. Specifications were written by the technicial department. I initiated capability studies and we found that the specified tolerances were not realistic in some cases, and could be changed with out affecting product or customer expectations. It could also be that the "rule makers are the rule breakers". If top management wants to change the specifications based upon data and market conditions, then it may seem like an issue to a newbe QC person. When I first started, I thought everything was either black or white. Found out soon there is a lot of gray. I have had Executive Vice Presidents sign a waiver to realease parts I had rejected, several times.
Guess what.. to my surprise the customer did not complain about those "defective" parts. But each case has to be decided on it's own circumstances and the risks involved.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#39
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

Good points, Ralph. To me, though, there is nothing unethical in your scenarios. If management has a system that allows them to ship products that were defective and documented defective, no problem in my book. Just don't ask me to mark that they are fine. Remember the thread on ISO preparation?

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=18720&highlight=BradM

How many of you auditors, given the scenario given, think the lead auditor did the right thing? Did he best serve the organization by NOT citing non-conformances that should have been cited?

As far as tolerances, if they are unrealistic, failing them is the best/ quickest way to address that they will not work. Otherwise, everyone thinks things are good to go.

Systems have to have some flexibility. Making decisions that contribute to a less-than-ideal system, ignorance, etc. is a part of life, and something we all have to deal with. But at no time should anyone do something that sells out their integrity. It is not that hard to know to do the right thing. I don't know; I'm beginning to think I live in the surreal world of Myst or something.


If anyone keeps up with House, the current dilemmas faced by the characters bring this close to home.
 
O

Old Quality Gal

#40
Re: The dilemma of Falsifying Inspection Results

Interesting thread! I think people reflect, maybe subconsciously, the values of management.
If management is unambiguous about behaviors like harassment and bigotry it doesn't happen as much.
Many years ago when I was a young reliability engineer, precomputer programs, I was working on classified project for a mission critical system for the next generation of fighter planes.
At the kickoff meeting the project manager, a 2 war Marine Corp Officer, WWII and Korea, told us some horror stories about field failures of weapons and equipment that the cost lives of the troops who were depending on them. It had a career long impact on me.
Many times we are the ethical line in the sand. Your reputation is the only thing no one can take away from you by force. You have to give it away.
I remember a very large company was caught using a cheaper fluid to fill gyroscopes for aircraft. They were not rated for the proper operating temperatures. It was a big company decision but it was little guys who took the fall.
I also remember the day the Challenger exploded. The company I worked for at the time had developed and built many of the components on the shuttles.
I remember us all sitting in a room staring at the TV with a sick feeling in our stomachs awaiting each public information release in agony. We did not contribute to the failure but trust me we all felt the pain. Jobs come and go, you only have one conscience and one good name.
Regards,
Mary ( frequently wrong but never in doubt!)
 
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