The FBI Wants to Tap the Net - 2001 to 2014

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#1
FBI wants to tap the net. Makes carnivore look like a baby monitor since this tracks all packets, and would be placed at key locations on the net

From interactiveweek.com/ (Former link) article/0,3658,s%3D605%26a%253D16678,00.asp

October 18, 2001
Beyond Carnivore: FBI Eyes Packet Taps
By* Max Smetannikov
*
Expect the FBI to expand its Internet wiretapping program, says a source familiar with the plan.

Stewart Baker, a partner with law firm Steptoe & Johnson, is a former general counsel to the National Security Agency. He says the FBI has spent the last two years developing a new surveillance architecture that would concentrate Internet traffic in several key locations where all packets, not just e-mail, could be wiretapped. It is now planning to begin implementing this architecture using the powers it has under existing wiretapping laws.

The FBI has acknowledged a program called Carnivore, which sniffs e-mail messages, but the new program is more extensive, Baker says.

"The FBI has been gradually developing a set of guidelines, standards - call it what you will - a list of what law enforcement wants from packet data communications systems," Baker said. "And they are in the process of unveiling that over the next few months to ISPs and router manufacturers and the like."

ISPs, Web hosters, vendors and other firms handling critical Internet infrastructure should expect the FBI trying to schedule meetings to deliver the details of their offering, and show the document containing the technical specifications, Baker said. He indicated that details of what this new surveillance architecture should look like are not clear. It is also possible the FBI has retained some well-known data infrastructure consulting firms to develop its new technology.

The new architecture is different from Carnivore because it would likely ask for certain types of data communications to be centralized, he said.

"The goal might be to get companies that use packet data to have those packets go to one place for purposes of wiretap and other intercept capabilities," Baker said. "It's clear they [the Bureau] have decided that in the next year or so they are going to make a big push on packet data and they are going to use whatever leverage they can to get people to cooperate and to build a set of packet data systems that are more wiretap friendly than the ones we have today."

The FBI spokesman overseeing Carnivore and other wiretapping issues didn't immediately return calls seeking comments.

Whatever the new initiative ends up looking like, the Internet service provider community could be more likely to cooperate, shaken up by Sept. 11, said industry executives. But no one has heard of the FBI going beyond Carnivore at this point.

"The FBI are trying to get Carnivore with a lot more ISPs," said Patrick Sweeney, president and chief executive of ServerVault, a Web hosting firm specializing in secure hosting.

Reportedly, the FBI is trying to use sections of Title 18, the wiretapping law, to extend its eavesdropping coverage to e-mail, Sweeney said. While he was not familiar with the initiative Baker described, Sweeney said Bureau's interest in tracking data communications is not shocking, and might go beyond the FBI.

"There are so many agencies that are working on procedures where they can make sure than entire comprehensive wireless and wireline tapping can be put into place if need be," he said.
 
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CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
Roll Over

I'm sorry, but I need to pull out a soap box....

Whatever the new initiative ends up looking like, the Internet service provider community could be more likely to cooperate, shaken up by Sept. 11, said industry executives. But no one has heard of the FBI going beyond Carnivore at this point.
Each day, I come accross some issue, completely unrelated to the events of Sept 11, where someone or some organization wants to limit my freedom because of those events. I knew I would never be prepared for the fallout from that day.

Thanks for letting me spew a little, Marc.

CarolX
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#3
The Fibbies need something else to screw up.

I still have personal nightmares concerning the Fibbies gaining info and conducting surveillance on a couple of bad guys that resulted in the deaths of a teenage boy and girl (Jimmy Thompson & Elaine Dolan) outside of Jacksonville, Ark in 1973.

And of course we all know about their fantastic antics at Ruby Ridge and Waco ( I had a friend with the ATF that got shot there). How about the Miami shoot out?

The Fibs seem to be great at gathering info, and then have a real good history of falling on their collective butts when trying to act on it.

Don't get me wrong, I've been to the FBI Academy myself. The training there is top notch as are the instructors. In my law career I met many a FBI Agent who were extremely competent and professional individuals. But somewhere in foggy bottom and in the Fibber hierarchy are the chowderheads that do not have a blue sky on their planet and seem to breathe Methane and not Oxygen.

I feel a sense of foreboding doom with some of these new and broadreaching initiatives take place in foggy bottom.:(
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#4
Any more, I just assume every telephone call (copper or cell) is monitored. I also assume this site and all e-mail (and not just 'headers') is monitored. From what I have learned about FBI and CIA activities from as far back as the 1950's - and up to today - I would put absolutely nothing past either agency. The LSD 'experiements' of the 1950's show how far they will go - and I simply do not believe they're any different today. I was brought up being told about that nasty old Russia and their KGB. We've had (have) our own KGB, and they're just as ruthless and just as political.
 
E

energy

#5
What do we do?

You have to assume all electronic communication has the potential of being monitored. So? Keep it free of subversive overtones and keep on truckin. I'm in favor of a National ID Card. We all have SS numbers and tax returns. Credit ratings are available everywhere. What's left? Do we continue to allow people to do what they want to do in the name of privacy? Our whole way of doing things and allowing an open society has allowed sinister creatures to operate in our midst and use our transportation and the postal service as their greatest weapons. In fact, our freedom is their best weapon. The news media,in their greed for anything to print, is being used aginst us. Hey, it's their right to freedom of speech. I'm ready for a change. I don't think it will have a major impact on my existance. It may impact those who bear ill will towards this country and it's citizens. That's a good thing. Thanks for the soap box.:smokin:
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#6
Who Determines What Is 'Subversive'?

> Keep it free of subversive overtones and keep on truckin.

Who determines *WHAT* is 'subversive? Right now, listening to TV 'news' and many people (just about any conservative), just being a Liberal (as I am) is subversive. Am I a 'subversive' because I'm a registerd Democrat? Do I got to jail if I don't have an American flag on my porch? On a lapel pin? Am I a subversive if I oppose the war in Afganistan (as I did the Viet Nam war)? Am I a subversive if I say "our leader" wasn't elected? Am I 'subversive' for writing this in this 'tone'? Am I subversive for saying the people need a bailout, not the airlines and insurance companies?

Not so many years ago in Russia, Stalin determined what was 'subversive' and ordered the murder of millions of Russian citizens. The US wouldn't do that? The more I learn of what our government has done, the less I see anything they wouldn't do. Even the History Channel now gives us a good insight into how far the FBI and CIA have gone in the past. Blind trust in either the FBI or CIA is silly - they're political protectors - not "defenders of the people". Let's see - Most recently on the FBI's "I wanna" list is permission to torture and to incarcerate people indefinitely (Weeks? Months? Years?) without a warrant or evidence or a lawyer - in fact, without even notifying anyone that the person (or persons) are being held at all. Sounds just like the oldRussian KGB to me...

> I'm in favor of a National ID Card.

I have had a passport since I was 13 - a 'national ID card' doesn't phase me at all. In fact, I now carry my current passport with me everywhere 'just in case'.

On the other hand, I also know if I really wanted one bad enough, I could get a fake passport. Larry Ellison (Oracle, of course, which stands to make mega-bucks from such a system) is pushing. But Larry's 'technology solution' is full of holes if you look closely. Sounds so easy. Unfortunately the reality is bogus ID cards would be on the street in days.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#7
A liberal and a war protester? Oh my gosh, how horrible...:rolleyes:

I don't like the national ID card thing..the next thing will be a tatoo with your registration number on your hand and 666 on your forehead.

Because of the way our society (the USA that is) is structured we will continue to have the potential for things like Sept 11.

The more freedom we give up the more potential there is for open dissent to be persecuted and prosecuted.

We are a unique people. We welcome those that have opposing views, lifestyles, beliefs, faiths and eveything else. If we start making people carry ID's, have the same thoughts, act the same, believe the same, and pray the same, the we need to issue a little Red Book or copies of Mein Khampf.

I don't agree with a lot of things that go on now. I oppose abortion, disagree with the open promotion of homosexuality, would like to see an end of welfare as it is operated now, and a lot of the other warm, fuzzy, feel good crap that is forced upon Americans by liberal do gooders.

BUT.....as an American and a veteran who served to preserve our Constitution and to try to aford the same to the people of another nation, I respect the rights for others to believe differently than I do and I willing defended those rights for nearly 29 years. As a polce officer in Arkansas in the '70s I refused to treat other Americans differently because they happened to be a little darker than me.

If it came to a vote about a national ID card ol' Randy would have the biggest NO on the ballot.

And a little subversion is not necessarily a bad thing. One mans subversive is another mans candidate for office (Tom Hayden comes to mind).
 
Last edited:
E

energy

#8
Re: Who Determines What Is 'Subversive'?

Originally posted by Marc

> Keep it free of subversive overtones and keep on truckin.
Who determines *WHAT* is 'subversive? Right now, listening to TV 'news' and many people (just about any conservative), just being a Liberal (as I am) is subversive. Am I a 'subversive' because I'm a registerd Democrat? Do I got to jail if I don't have an American flag on my porch? On a lapel pin? Am I a subversive if I oppose the war in Afganistan (as I did the Viet Nam war)? Am I a subversive if I say "our leader" wasn't elected? Am I 'subversive' for writing this in this 'tone'? Am I subversive for saying the people need a bailout, not the airlines and insurance companies?
Not wanting to be drawn into a "political" discussion like a year ago (Gore-Bush) when my fervor matched "others" and got me kicked out of the sandbox, let's change the word from "Subversive" to "Criminal".
The FBI should be allowed to use the tools to weed out the criminals in out midst, regardless of their polical affiliations. Nothing is perfect, but the alternatives are far worse. So, who determines what sounds criminal? The Law Enforcement agencies of this country. That's who. For those who think they are exempt from scrutiny, my bleeding heart goes out to them.:smokin:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

Al Dyer

#9
As mentioned,

We already have a national I.D. called social security. Do we really need more federal intervention into our lives. Don't we all know that we are all monitored already?

The powers that be are in place and people should not get the feeling that "it could never happen here"

We know it has and will continue.

I just wish more people realized that we are supposed to live in a constitutionally limited republic, not a democracy.

OK, OK, OK, of the box for now, I digress into too much politics.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#10
Energy, you gotta be careful. Allowing law enforcement agencies to determine what is criminal is what happened in Germany in the 30's and 40's, in the old USSR and other Bloc countries and in many of the Latin American countries, what is now going on in China (remember Tienamen Square?) and in other Asian countries.

The determination of what is criminal has to rest with the people that are represented by their government (Democracy remember). The determination of criminality of behavior has to be based upon our combined religious beliefs, social mores, and other contributing factors.

I would not endorse a law or Constitutional Amendment outlawing the burning of the American flag. Should that make me a subversive or criminal? Do I like flag burning? Do it in front of me and I'll probably go nuts (I'm a Marine remember). But,should a person exercising rights guaranteed by our 1st Amendment be subject to arrest? No. If so, then at least half of the US Congress(mostly Democrats) would have their butts in the jug using that train of thought by disagreeing with the Executive Branch (remember the Pres controls law enforcement and they should determine who was a subversive according to you).

I cringe to think what might have occurred if I or others like me in law enforcement had been allowed to exercise our "judgement" on what constituted criminal activity or behavior.

In the eyes of some, the conversations we are carrying on here could be considered subversive could they not? You bet your sweet a-- they could. There are some that would look upon me as subversive because of what I have stated here and you too, along with Marc and everbody else. Are we really? Not hardly.

The best thing is to allow law enforcement to do their jobs within the restraints imposed upon them by a "free society".

Whew...........
 
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