The Future Structure of ISO Management System Standards

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JaneB

#12
Great article, Sidney and it's good to see the direction they're taking. Thanks a lotfor keeping us informed.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#13
Thanks a lot for keeping us informed.
You are welcome. This "new" direction for the ISO Management System standards will certainly impact the discussions on the What should be changed in the ISO 9001:2014 Standard? thread, I hope....:tg:

Without a doubt (in my mind), this common direction for future ISO MS Standards should be a positive change. It will make life easier for the enlightened organizations that want to integrate the separate management systems into a more coherent one and make such systems an integral part of their business operating system.
 
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J

JaneB

#14
Sidney,

Yes it does (or should) impact the discussions in that thread
Without a doubt (in my mind), this common direction for future ISO MS Standards should be a positive change. It will make life easier for the enlightened organizations that want to integrate the separate management systems into a more coherent one and make such systems an integral part of their business operating system.
I do agree. It's quite confusing for many people new to the world of management systems standards trying to get to grips with the various structures and directions. Having a common direction should make that more consistent, more coherent and easier. All very good things in my opinion.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#15
One of the concerns over this possible route with the ISO Management System Standards, including the (cash cow) ISO 9001 is the fact that several Industry sector standards, such as the ISO/TS16949, AS9100, AS9110, AS9120, TL-9000, etc. use ISO 9001 as a baseline.

If the IATF, IAQG and other similar stakeholders don't agree with the direction of a future ISO 9001 along the lines of the article in the original post, they might start to de-couple such sector standards from ISO 9001, what would be not desirable for the users of the standards who have to demonstrate conformance with multiple standards.

The ISO JTCG has to manage this risk very carefully.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#16
An early draft of the proposed common language for future ISO Management System Standards is attached.

Interesting to note that section 10 deals with nonconformity and corrective action. No mention whatsoever to preventive action. Could they have seen the light? :tg:

Also, the term and definition of risk is introduced.
 

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Jim Wynne

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#17
An early draft of the proposed common language for future ISO Management System Standards is attached.

Interesting to note that section 10 deals with nonconformity and corrective action. No mention whatsoever to preventive action. Could they have seen the light? :tg:
We can only hope. I think it should be evident to most people with a steady pulse that continualous improvement can't happen without preventive action, so establishing PA as a distinct requirement is superfluous and has led to much pain and suffering. I say this notwithstanding those folks who, despite witnessing the confusion the requirement has caused, claim that the requirement is perfectly clear to them.

Also, the term and definition of risk is introduced.
And the definition has been badly botched, imo. It's given as "effect of uncertainty on objectives." The definition, which is bad enough to begin with, is further muddied by two notes:

"NOTE 1 An effect is a deviation from the expected — positive and/or negative.
NOTE 2 Uncertainty is the state, even partial, of deficiency of information related to an event.
The combination of consequence and likelihood of an event can be used to characterize risk. "

First, "risk" is the possibility or probability of undesirable results. Given Note 1, we must also characterize serendipitous results as part of risk, which is antithetical to the concept, especially in this context.

Note 2 describes "uncertainty" as deficiency of information, which is partially correct but ignores the role of probability in risk. In other words, we may have all of the information we need and understand the probability of a negative result, but accept the probability (and thus the uncertainty) because of the information we have.
 

howste

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#18
I'm not a big fan of the definition of risk here either. The definition of risk in AS9100 seem much more clear and applicable to management systems:
AS9100:2009 said:
An undesirable situation or circumstance that has both a likelihood of occurring and a potentially negative consequence.
I've definitely seen what I consider to be worse definitions for this application though:
Risk Management Guide for DoD Acquisition said:
Risk: A measure of future uncertainties in achieving program performance goals within defined cost and schedule constraints. It has three components: a future root cause, a likelihood assessed at the present time of that future root cause occurring, and the consequence of that future occurrence.
 

Jim Wynne

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#19
I'm not a big fan of the definition of risk here either. The definition of risk in AS9100 seem much more clear and applicable to management systems:
Originally Posted by AS9100:2009

An undesirable situation or circumstance that has both a likelihood of occurring and a potentially negative consequence.
I'd like it better if "likelihood" were changed to "possibility."
 
V

vanputten

#20
The definition of Risk comes from the TMB (Technical Management Board) on Risk Management (ISO 31000 et al.)

ISO Guide 73:2009*Risk management – Vocabulary
ISO 31000:2009 Risk management -- Principles and guidelines
ISO/IEC*31010:2009*Risk management -- Risk assessment techniques

The definition of Risk from ISO Guide 73 (2002 revision) was "Combination of the probability of an event and its consequence."

The insurance industry is the largest group represented in TMB on Risk Management and apparently the insurance industry is driving most of this work.
 
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