The Job Hunt - Care and feeding of references

L

lrowe

#21
Here is something else to throw in the mix. How would you suggest handling a reference request from a headhunter (AKA Recruiter) when they are looking to prepare to send a resume and reference check to their client, who of course has the open position? I would think since the headhunter has a vested interest in placing a person($$$$ for their finders fee) that might be OK to give references before the potential candidate is actually interviewed. What does everyone else think?

Larry
 
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ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#22
Here is something else to throw in the mix. How would you suggest handling a reference request from a headhunter (AKA Recruiter) when they are looking to prepare to send a resume and reference check to their client, who of course has the open position? I would think since the headhunter has a vested interest in placing a person($$$$ for their finders fee) that might be OK to give references before the potential candidate is actually interviewed. What does everyone else think?

Larry

If the candidate already told you to expect this and he's OK with it, then I see no problem.
If a headhunter calls me regarding a candidate unawares, I would ask for his number and say I'll call him back after I clear it with the candidate.
A repsectable recruiter should not have an issue with that.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#23
One tip I can give you all, relative to Discordian's reluctance to give up a reference to a recruiter is "Never say never!":notme:

Coury makes good points that some recruiters are retained by the employer to do ALL of the screening before bringing a candidate to the employer's attention.

My response to that is to reread the thread about "Gatekeepers"
Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting
and ask the gatekeeper to "register my name with the employer if you are afraid I will try to beat you out of your commission and then disclose the name of the employer to me."

If the recruiter is "retained" versus "freelance," he is, in effect, a registered agent of the employer's Human Resources department and giving him the reference is the same as giving it to the employer directly.

If he is a freelance recruiter, he has nothing to gain from calling your reference, and you have even less to gain, so Discordian's position is valid in such a case.

In regard to the services which check your references:
These are primarily to see how an "impersonal" clerk in HR responds to folks asking about your previous employment. Also, how previous supervisors or coworkers who may be disclosed by the impersonal clerk will respond. Those services are very good in winnowing out (and setting up ammunition for lawsuits against) previous employers and the like who are torpedoing your job search. Their interviewers are good "social engineers" who can get folks to disclose stuff over the phone that should not be disclosed. My position is you should not give up a NAME of a personal reference unless you are completely confident of what he will say. If you don't trust him, don't use him as a PERSONAL reference.

  1. Anybody interested in a separate thread about the questions to ask when you are the one checking references?
  2. How about how to fend off an interviewer trying to pump you for "dirt," whether you are a personal reference or one of those "impersonal references" to whom a call gets routed when someone calls asking about a previous employee?
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#24
One tip I can give you all, relative to Discordian's reluctance to give up a reference to a recruiter is "Never say never!":notme:

Coury makes good points that some recruiters are retained by the employer to do ALL of the screening before bringing a candidate to the employer's attention.

My response to that is to reread the thread about "Gatekeepers"
Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting
and ask the gatekeeper to "register my name with the employer if you are afraid I will try to beat you out of your commission and then disclose the name of the employer to me."

If the recruiter is "retained" versus "freelance," he is, in effect, a registered agent of the employer's Human Resources department and giving him the reference is the same as giving it to the employer directly.

If he is a freelance recruiter, he has nothing to gain from calling your reference, and you have even less to gain, so Discordian's position is valid in such a case.
All the recruiters I've worked with over the years, but two, have been freelance. Thus my attitude.
The two have been full time recruiters working directly for the company. With them I had no issue.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#25
I am not surprised at the response in this thread after the emotions I witnessed in the YMCA coffee lounge.

Some of the things we discussed were
  1. blind ads
  2. no acknowledgement of application status (pending, trash, job filled, etc.)
  3. inappropriate questions in phone and face to face interviews
  4. obvious bias during interview against women of child bearing age, blacks and other ethnic identities
  5. interviewers who spend entire interview talking about themselves and company, never getting around to whether the candidate will ft in.
  6. Stress interviews
  7. candidates who send in applications when they have NONE of the experience or skills laid out in the job listing
  8. incompetent recruiters
  9. Job listings that ask for more experience and skills than the pay scale justifies
Anybody interested in a new thread on any of those topics?
 
L

lrowe

#26
Wes,

I have had a number of experiences with the topics on your list, but I might like to see more discussions on recruiters since they are an odd breed to figure out. I've dealt with some that at least seem truly interested in finding a right placement for you and others that you hear from once and claim to keep you in mind for furture posibilities - then never to be heard from again.

Larry
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#27
Wes,

I have had a number of experiences with the topics on your list, but I might like to see more discussions on recruiters since they are an odd breed to figure out. I've dealt with some that at least seem truly interested in finding a right placement for you and others that you hear from once and claim to keep you in mind for future possibilities - then never to be heard from again.

Larry
OK! Recruiters are a special subset of gatekeepers. Feel free to start a thread in this Forum about Recruiters and I will join in later with some details and clarifications about the various categories within the general heading of "recruiter." For example, not everyone who labels himself "headhunter" is a true "headhunter" in the industry understanding of the term.
.
It is important to know you have the right to cross-examine any recruiter you deal with on his credentials. It can be an eye-opening experience!
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#28
Wes,

I have had a number of experiences with the topics on your list, but I might like to see more discussions on recruiters since they are an odd breed to figure out. I've dealt with some that at least seem truly interested in finding a right placement for you and others that you hear from once and claim to keep you in mind for future possibilities - then never to be heard from again.

Larry
One thing to keep in mind about recruiters - they are big time "job hoppers." Employers are quick to raise a stink if they take clients raised while in an agency's employ when they leave for another company.

The reality is that rarely does a recruiter take a personal interest in a job seeker unless the candidate is a "hot" property and will earn a big commission for the recruiter. Most of the "interest" is just salesmanship to keep a candidate from running to a competing recruiter.

Here's the deal:
Recruiters today almost always are paid by the employer - who do you think they really cater to - employer? or candidate?

There is no such thing as a "secret list" of job openings. If you follow the tips in these two threads
Resume and cover letter - How good are yours?
Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting
you will have as much access to job openings as a recruiter just starting out. The recruiter's advantage is merely that he or a member of his firm spends most time learning which companies are growing or shrinking and know from experience that "change means jobs will be available." Even companies shedding employees in "mass quantities" are usually also hiring to fill gaps left by necessary employees who bail out to beat the axe.

The other advantage these guys have is they don't have to limit their search for job openings to the narrow segment YOU qualify for. They don't have to limit their geographic search nor salary range. That's why they have a lot of job openings in inventory.

Bottom line is that you actually have an advantage over the average recruiter because you CAN narrow your search and hone in on the ones that fit your parameters best.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#29
Thread bump: The Job Hunt - Care and feeding of references

There's a lot of good information in this thread.

I think one of the most important points here is this one (from post 1):
Bottom line:
When you ask someone to agree to be a personal reference, you are really asking him to be a salesman to sell a product (you) to a prospective employer. If you are unsure of the sales ability even after your discussion about how to handle a request for personal reference, you should not give this person as a reference. A bad reference is worse than no reference.
 
S

sudwel

#30
Thanks for bumping this, Wes!

I was in "job-hunting mode" just a short year ago... can't believe it's a year this week that I had the interview that changed my work life! :)

I agree with all the advice regarding "care and feeding" of references!! Before using ANY of my references, I contacted them to be sure I could use them, then, when they agreed - I sent them a copy of the job posting along with my cover letter and resume so they could see what the employer was looking for vs. what I was saying I could do (and of course, they knew what I could do... or in the case of one reference who I'd been in and out of touch with professionally - I filled her in on my recent relevant activities). I kept them posted on how the interview went, and they followed up with me once they had been contacted.

I've also been on the interviewer side of the table and have had to follow up with references... I'm not certain that checking references is a complete waste of time... I find that if you ask more specific questions vs. generic "what's he like?" questions, you get more honest, straightforward answers. I haven't hired dozens and dozens of people... but I did have good luck with those I did hire!!

I've also been a reference several times - most recently this past December - and the prospective supervisor, who made the call, asked quite specific questions.. and as the candidate was interviewing for a position identical to mine (a brand new position) I was able to provide insight on how I thought the candidate would perform.

On a side note - when I interviewed my home daycare provider, I asked for her references and I called all of them... in the (at that time) 17+ years my daycare provider had been providing daycare, I was the only parent that had ever actually followed up with references!!! That boggles my mind!! You'd leave your child with a complete stranger and not check their references??!!!!

Just my :2cents:
Darlene
 
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