The Job Hunt - Care and feeding of references

K

kgott

#31
While on this subject of interviews, whats the views about taking a folder into an interview for the sorts of roles people on this forum do.

Should you make a point of opening it at for at least no other reason than showing that your not secretly taping the interview?

Does it look like you are well prepared or does it make the interviewer think that you have old timers diseaise?

Is it OK to wallk out without opening it? The interviewer might focus on the fact that you didn't open it and eventually form a negative opinion of you to the exclusion of the merits of your answers to questions?

What would you put in there anyway?

Should it be manilla folder or a see though plastic folder

Just wondering how taking a folder into an interview would be percieved?
 
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Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#32
While on this subject of interviews, whats the views about taking a folder into an interview for the sorts of roles people on this forum do.

Should you make a point of opening it at for at least no other reason than showing that your not secretly taping the interview?

Does it look like you are well prepared or does it make the interviewer think that you have old timers diseaise?

Is it OK to wallk out without opening it? The interviewer might focus on the fact that you didn't open it and eventually form a negative opinion of you to the exclusion of the merits of your answers to questions?

What would you put in there anyway?

Should it be manilla folder or a see though plastic folder

Just wondering how taking a folder into an interview would be percieved?
I sincerely doubt any interviewer would care one way or the other whether you take a folder, an envelope, or a briefcase into an interview. If a question comes up, you may have documentation to support your response.

As far as worrying about recording, I see ads all the time for video (and voice) recorders that look like ballpoint pens in a shirt or jacket pocket, who would worry about a whole briefcase when such surreptitious devices are available for $100 or less?

If any interviewer were that paranoid, I'd rethink continuing with the interview.
 
K

kgott

#33
Thanks for that Wes;

I've never done this accept when I've been told to take evidence of qualifications with me, because I've always thought of it as a negative as I think perhaps, incorreclty, that it distracts the interview away from me and onto the folder.

I've never been asked about a personal reference when job hunting but when dealing with references generally I usually say something like, " My referees value their privacy and they won't be happy with me giving out their details to those not involved in the interview but I will give them to the interviewer." This usually does the trick of not giving out references to recruiters.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#34
Thanks for that Wes;

I've never done this accept when I've been told to take evidence of qualifications with me, because I've always thought of it as a negative as I think perhaps, incorreclty, that it distracts the interview away from me and onto the folder.

I've never been asked about a personal reference when job hunting but when dealing with references generally I usually say something like, " My referees value their privacy and they won't be happy with me giving out their details to those not involved in the interview but I will give them to the interviewer." This usually does the trick of not giving out references to recruiters.
The bottom line on references is different for each candidate and depends on the nature of the reference and how close that person is to the candidate.

If you hold out on giving references (for whatever reason), it is OK to say, "My references have expressed a desire not to be contacted for "routine screening," but only when it is a final check when I am a finalist for the position. Am I a finalist?"

On the other hand, if the references are merely confirming your dates of service and the fact you left a job on good terms, it shouldn't be a burden if a recruiter OR an employer has a clerk check them.

Make a distinction in your mind about the differences between the following:

  1. headhunter: paid by employer to find someone - they often do not respond to "over the transom" approaches by candidates, but prefer to make the first move. Real headhunters usually only look for guys who are already earning six figures and rarely do they approach unemployed people. Rarely do they openly list or advertise a job opening, but work on research and referral. They rarely offer more than one candidate at a time to an employer. They will withhold client name until they feel the candidate may be viable. Often the first approach will not even indicate the candidate is a target. They may say they are considering someone else and they would like your opinion, even though you are not a formal reference for that person. The conversation may be very flattering, to get a sense of the candidate's demeanor when he isn't expecting his personal claims about himself to be fact-checked. It's probably smart to give your references to a true headhunter, else he'll just drop you and move on to the next. The true headhunters will not abuse the references because their stock and trade is all based on relationships and networking and abusing references by excessive calls is a NO NO which ruins reputations.
  2. agency recruiter: they try to act like a headhunter, but the truth is they may not even have an exclusive listing. A clue is these folks advertise or post a listing for a job. They are gatekeepers, looking for excuses to narrow the field, and will often offer a number of candidates for the same job, letting the employer make the decisions. They may make preliminary interviews to make sure you won't embarrass them in the employer's interview, but rarely will they give a person who makes a poor interview tips on how to make it appeal to an employer. Their philosophy is: "There's always another candidate." These folks may identify the employer early on if they have an exclusive listing.
  3. employer recruiter: a member of human resources - they get paid whether a candidate is hired or not. Their primary concern is :ca: so they don't waste any time grooming a marginal candidate. The upside is the employer is identified and you might reread the thread (Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting) about going around such gatekeepers to an actual decision maker.
  4. non-exclusive employment agency: these folks advertise like crazy, but to maximize their ad dollars, they write generic ads which could apply to several companies because they never know if another agency might get there first. Pinning these guys down to identify the client is tough because they are working on spec for several employers with similar open positions. These are the last people on earth I would let have my references,
 
K

kgott

#35
Excellant info on how the employment industry works Wes. I've spent years trying to figure out what you explained in 10 minutes of writing, thanks for that.

I read quite a few articles about getting past gate keepers and I save that thread for when I'm next looking for something.

I also read your piece and other articles aobut the same topic of cover letters and I tend to write a cover letter that's only a paragraphs long but I dont know the effect it has as there's quite a lot of work around town at the moment and I havent had much trouble in getting something, ie this job is mostly a function change for me.

Got any advice on length, structure and what not to say in a cover letter?

thanks again

My cover letter is short and sw
 
T

The Specialist

#36
Wes,

I find the following topic from your list interesting:

(2.) no acknowledgement of application status (pending, trash, job filled, etc.)

I have not had too many problems myself with this as I have always been recruited through agents who work on my behalf (as well as that of the employer and of course, themselves!).

In these situations the agent usually keeps you well informed (and may have applied to multiple positions/vacancies).

From what I understand of many of my friends, colleagues and other working professionals this is a far greater issue when applying directly to the recruiting company.

In years gone-by, I did send my CV out to major Pharma companies (not advertising a vacancy) I was interested in working for along with a letter. I rarely got a response.
At first thought I considered this a little rude and disingenuous, expecting a reply as a matter of courtesy. Then, I considered the volume of letters and CV 'drops' they must receive... Also, had I researched correctly? Had I sent the letter to the correct person(s)?

Ultimately, getting no reply can make you feel like; 'no-one wants me', 'am I good enough?' etc... (Despite the fact there was no advertised vacancy!) It can be quite demoralising.

I can only imagine how one feels when waiting for a response or multiple responses from vacancies applied for; sitting, wondering, unaware WHY they were not considered for the position, WHAT they need to do to improve their chances/CV, HOW to do things differently in the future... I know this is a common problem.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#37
Here is something else to throw in the mix. How would you suggest handling a reference request from a headhunter (AKA Recruiter) when they are looking to prepare to send a resume and reference check to their client, who of course has the open position? I would think since the headhunter has a vested interest in placing a person($$$$ for their finders fee) that might be OK to give references before the potential candidate is actually interviewed. What does everyone else think?

Larry
If the candidate already told you to expect this and he's OK with it, then I see no problem.
If a headhunter calls me regarding a candidate unawares, I would ask for his number and say I'll call him back after I clear it with the candidate.
A repsectable recruiter should not have an issue with that.
OK! Recruiters are a special subset of gatekeepers. Feel free to start a thread in this Forum about Recruiters and I will join in later with some details and clarifications about the various categories within the general heading of "recruiter." For example, not everyone who labels himself "headhunter" is a true "headhunter" in the industry understanding of the term.
.
It is important to know you have the right to cross-examine any recruiter you deal with on his credentials. It can be an eye-opening experience!
The bottom line on references is different for each candidate and depends on the nature of the reference and how close that person is to the candidate.

If you hold out on giving references (for whatever reason), it is OK to say, "My references have expressed a desire not to be contacted for "routine screening," but only when it is a final check when I am a finalist for the position. Am I a finalist?"

On the other hand, if the references are merely confirming your dates of service and the fact you left a job on good terms, it shouldn't be a burden if a recruiter OR an employer has a clerk check them.

Make a distinction in your mind about the differences between the following:

  1. headhunter: paid by employer to find someone - they often do not respond to "over the transom" approaches by candidates, but prefer to make the first move. Real headhunters usually only look for guys who are already earning six figures and rarely do they approach unemployed people. Rarely do they openly list or advertise a job opening, but work on research and referral. They rarely offer more than one candidate at a time to an employer. They will withhold client name until they feel the candidate may be viable. Often the first approach will not even indicate the candidate is a target. They may say they are considering someone else and they would like your opinion, even though you are not a formal reference for that person. The conversation may be very flattering, to get a sense of the candidate's demeanor when he isn't expecting his personal claims about himself to be fact-checked. It's probably smart to give your references to a true headhunter, else he'll just drop you and move on to the next. The true headhunters will not abuse the references because their stock and trade is all based on relationships and networking and abusing references by excessive calls is a NO NO which ruins reputations.
  2. agency recruiter: they try to act like a headhunter, but the truth is they may not even have an exclusive listing. A clue is these folks advertise or post a listing for a job. They are gatekeepers, looking for excuses to narrow the field, and will often offer a number of candidates for the same job, letting the employer make the decisions. They may make preliminary interviews to make sure you won't embarrass them in the employer's interview, but rarely will they give a person who makes a poor interview tips on how to make it appeal to an employer. Their philosophy is: "There's always another candidate." These folks may identify the employer early on if they have an exclusive listing.
  3. employer recruiter: a member of human resources - they get paid whether a candidate is hired or not. Their primary concern is :ca: so they don't waste any time grooming a marginal candidate. The upside is the employer is identified and you might reread the thread (Tips to get past the "gatekeeper" when job hunting) about going around such gatekeepers to an actual decision maker.
  4. non-exclusive employment agency: these folks advertise like crazy, but to maximize their ad dollars, they write generic ads which could apply to several companies because they never know if another agency might get there first. Pinning these guys down to identify the client is tough because they are working on spec for several employers with similar open positions. These are the last people on earth I would let have my references,
Let's agree on a few things.

  1. it is a waste of time for employer or agency to check references before even a telephone interview with a candidate.
  2. if you are the candidate, you are well served to understand the difference between a "reference" for fact-checking data about your dates of employment, job title, etc. and a reference who will give a strong personal endorsement of your skill, work ethic, and personality
  3. a true headhunter (my definition) is really concerned about finding the BEST candidate because it enhances his reputation and justifies his much higher fee percentage than an average employment agency gets
  4. a true headhunter almost never advertises an open position
  5. a true headhunter works by talking to lots of people about other people in order to narrow his list of targets; he does not "burn" references you offer to give endorsements, but he may also talk to one or more people you have NOT listed, including some you would NEVER list, because he is looking for skeletons in your closet that could negatively impact his reputation if he offers you up to an employer and they are discovered down the road.
  6. real headhunters are almost never looking to fill jobs with less than a low six figure salary - if you currently earn a lot less than that, odds are the guy calling you purporting to be a headhunter is not a headhunter (my definition.) Most often, they are looking to fill jobs with a half million or more compensation package (benefits, stock options and warrants, etc. plus a six figure cash salary)
  7. If you aren't making that low six figures, and a real headhunter calls you, he is probably doing "data mining" for a search - it's up to you how cooperative and open you want to be - the questions may be to recruit a top dog in your organization (on the downside, they could be from some investment banker like I was, posing as a headhunter, looking for data to help in a company takeover)
  8. other recruiters (employment agencies or HR employees) will rarely call you out of the blue because they are too swamped with applications from other folks to spend time looking to grab employees from another company UNLESS they just want to pick your brain about your employer by scheduling a phony interview
 
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