The Perfect audit? External Audit causes a significant negative impact in a company

qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#1
Hi, everybody
I wonder what it happen if an external audit is performed in a company, but the result of this audit cause a great negative impact in this company (maybe bankruptcy, cancelled contracts, future worldwide negotiations,etc).
From here, what have you seen in this regards:
1- is it possible that affected company starts legal complaints against this auditor because it was not competent not experienced?.​
2 if this is possible, against what will be compared his knowledge because there is not authority who has the absolute reason, knowledge, criteria for audits.​
Here at Cove, have read Many different criteria for audits, and in my viewpoint all can be very acceptable.
In criteria I mean, to raise ncs, ones would coincide to apply same clause while others choose other different, but all auditors may fall into an acceptable criteria.
Could someone tell if have had a case like this?
The question could seem not so common.
Thanks
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Can you give some more detail of your thinking?
How can an external audit directly relate to Corporate bankruptcy or cancelled contracts? You have multiple means of pushing back on any findings prior to the information going public. An external auditor cannot be the cause for loss of public image unless one of two things are also true:

1. The auditor breached their NDA and went public​
2. Your QMS is so bad that the audit claims were true and upheld at higher levels.​
Please give more detail into what you propose or consider...
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
An auditee would not have a claim if:

1. The audit criteria are agreed (as in self imposed)
2. The audit plan is agreed as sufficient to fulfill the audit objective
3. The evidence of not fulfilling the criteria is agreed
4. The resulting nonconformity statements are correct, complete and clear.
5. The audit conclusion is based only on the audit findings.
6. The auditor remains objective and impartial and offers no advice

By sticking to the auditing conventions, auditors are unlikely to find themselves in court.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
An auditee would not have a claim if:

1. The audit criteria are agreed (as in self imposed)
2. The audit plan is agreed as sufficient to fulfill the audit objective
3. The evidence of not fulfilling the criteria is agreed
4. The resulting nonconformity statements are correct, complete and clear.
5. The audit conclusion is based only on the audit findings.
6. The auditor remains objective and impartial and offers no advice

By sticking to the auditing conventions, auditors are unlikely to find themselves in court.
Agreed on on counts...but I still do not see an immediate path to bankruptcy or market challenges...

1. "agreed"...did they?
2. "agreed"...did they?
3. "agreed"...did they?
4. NC statements are NC statements...not pulic disclosure leading to market performance or degradation...are they handled before market exposure?
5. better be...otherwise it is a pushback to CB, still not public exposure
6. If this is in question...should I mention the blind gopher?

It's not about auditor finding auditor in court...the OP is about...
(maybe bankruptcy, cancelled contracts, future worldwide negotiations,etc).
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Perfection is not achievable by man so I had to clarify the achievable requirements.

I am waiting to see our OP’s clarification of this manufactured dilemma before commenting further.
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
Hi, everybody
I wonder what it happen if an external audit is performed in a company, but the result of this audit cause a great negative impact in this company (maybe bankruptcy, cancelled contracts, future worldwide negotiations,etc).
From here, what have you seen in this regards:
1- is it possible that affected company starts legal complaints against this auditor because it was not competent not experienced?.​
2 if this is possible, against what will be compared his knowledge because there is not authority who has the absolute reason, knowledge, criteria for audits.​
Here at Cove, have read Many different criteria for audits, and in my viewpoint all can be very acceptable.
In criteria I mean, to raise ncs, ones would coincide to apply same clause while others choose other different, but all auditors may fall into an acceptable criteria.
Could someone tell if have had a case like this?
The question could seem not so common.
Thanks
Not sure if there is enough information to provide an opinion. The only case is that is your system is so bad that the certificate is pulled (and that is not easily done). Don't see a scenario in which an auditor caused you to go bankrupt or close the facility, but feel free to share.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#7
Hi, everybody
I wonder what it happen if an external audit is performed in a company, but the result of this audit cause a great negative impact in this company (maybe bankruptcy, cancelled contracts, future worldwide negotiations,etc).
From here, what have you seen in this regards:
1- is it possible that affected company starts legal complaints against this auditor because it was not competent not experienced?.​
2 if this is possible, against what will be compared his knowledge because there is not authority who has the absolute reason, knowledge, criteria for audits.​
Here at Cove, have read Many different criteria for audits, and in my viewpoint all can be very acceptable.
In criteria I mean, to raise ncs, ones would coincide to apply same clause while others choose other different, but all auditors may fall into an acceptable criteria.
Could someone tell if have had a case like this?
The question could seem not so common.
Thanks
I've had a couple I led over the last 18 years or so that have created havoc in a couple industries, resulted in leadership changes and so on, but every case it was a self inflicted wound. One I actually got cursed at, escorted to the door with my team of 2 others, told that we were getting reported and would never set foot again in another corporate facility....He's gone, we got a fantastic apology from their #1 Head Dude and the #1 for Global EHS and have been going back for years now. We uncovered some EHS thingy's that if not addressed "NOW" could have shuttered the plant, led to some nasty SOX problems and so on... The plant manager didn't have time during the audit to discuss anything because he was too bust managing "stuff"...So yeah, it can happen and others here can probably say the same.
 

qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#8
I've had a couple I led over the last 18 years or so that have created havoc in a couple industries, resulted in leadership changes and so on, but every case it was a self inflicted wound. One I actually got cursed at, escorted to the door with my team of 2 others, told that we were getting reported and would never set foot again in another corporate facility....He's gone, we got a fantastic apology from their #1 Head Dude and the #1 for Global EHS and have been going back for years now. We uncovered some EHS thingy's that if not addressed "NOW" could have shuttered the plant, led to some nasty SOX problems and so on... The plant manager didn't have time during the audit to discuss anything because he was too bust managing "stuff"...So yeah, it can happen and others here can probably say the same.
Thanks Randy, good lesson shared
That's a reason why audits are a serious activity.
Depending of the importance and scope, skilled auditors should be chosen.Frequently, we face cases Like You mentioned.
 

tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
#10
I guess Randy's example is the opposite of what qualprod is asking. Randy created a havoc in a couple of industries not because of incompetence;)
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
D AS9100 perfect audit Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 5
Sidney Vianna What would make the perfect certification body audit? A pdf file Registrars and Notified Bodies 3
A Does Least-squares (LSQ) simulate perfect roundness? Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
John Broomfield The PErfect ISO System Died Today... Imported Legacy Blogs 0
J CMM calibration using a perfect sphere that is supplied Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 8
L The Perfect Engineering Change and Concessions Management System Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 8
M Minitab 16 doesn't like perfect data for Cpk & Normality? Using Minitab Software 5
S Product Instability and a less-than-perfect Measurement System Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 10
U Perfect Team Work Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 10
Sidney Vianna Perfect gift for the (very) wealthy F1 fan - Professional racing simulator Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 2
M Perfect Pop Songs - Your Choices? Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 25
C The "Perfect Order" as a Customer Satisfaction Measurement Customer Complaints 7
L Can you help me build the perfect Quality Room? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 27
M Perfect Form at MMC is Not Required. Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
N Perfect Selling Fully Functioning Class 1 Medical Device vs. Antique ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
M The Perfect QMS: One without a Quality Manager? (your opinion wanted!) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 58
R In a perfect world, who does the Quality Organization answer to? Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 18
J What is the perfect Quality Policy? Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 16
Q ISO 9001-2015 Internal audit finding Internal Auditing 12
lanley liao How to understand this words that the planning of internal audit shall take into consideration the results of previous audits? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 10
P Audit check for IT company (ISO 9001) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
D Supplier audit Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 2
M Go Live With New ERP System before Recertification Audit General Auditing Discussions 6
A Add MDSAP to Internal Audit Schedule Medical Device Related Regulations 0
A Define timeline for Major and Miner Audit finding General Auditing Discussions 4
J IATF 16949 Internal Audit question - Auditor's responsibility Internal Auditing 6
A API Monogram audit review process Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 4
S IATF 16949 Internal Audit Example IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
B Remote IATF 16949 audit preparation General Auditing Discussions 10
M AS9100D Registrar pre-audit requirements AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 15
I Do I need to sign off my annual audit calendar? Internal Auditing 2
R AS9100D internal audit checklist or ISO 9001 2015 to AS9100 D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
M Nice and simple invitation email to an audit kickoff meeting Internal Auditing 1
M IATF 16949 - Audit of Remote Location/Support Site and IT IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
Q IATF audit - Root Cause Analysis results IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
Q Self-assessment audit information Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 6
Le Chiffre Online training available for ISO/IEC 17021-1: Requirements for bodies providing audit and certification of management systems Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
xfngrs NIOSH Audit for N95 respirators US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 1
Sidney Vianna IATF 16949 News Risked Based Audit Day Calculation IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
T AS9100 audit due to facility move AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
M ISO 13485:2016 internal audit checklist Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 5
A Internal Audit Questions ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
B SAP Audit trail Periodic Review EU Medical Device Regulations 1
N What are the software audit and control steps Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 2
R Gap Audit Aerospsace and Rail QMS Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 0
salaheddine96 Internal audit planning Internal Auditing 2
A MDSAP Audit Questionnaire Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 7
H Obligations as a contract manufacturer during an MDSAP audit ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
M What are the basics of Medical Device Single Audit Program (MDSAP)? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 7
Sidney Vianna IATF 16949 News Update on the IATF CARA Project (“Common Audit Report Application”) - 12/2020 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1

Similar threads

Top Bottom